This thread has been enlightening for me. I think in my case I'll say as little as possible or I'll end up tying myself in knots. I will only tell the truth, but there are two sides to the truth. The one the Department will accept - that I've suffered work-related depression - and one they won't - that I don't want to work anyway.
The reason why I find this thread so fascinating is the level of honesty displayed ... We were sincerely getting to the bottom of it. Heaven forbid the youth should be tempted to be so honest!
This is a quite interesting thread! I just stoped by to say the following:
If you are going to any interview please rehearse the sentences you are going to say at home, not just think about what you are going to say, say it loudly when you are alone, hence when you have to repeat it it will sound much more credible.
Also please consider to study a little bit, make it fun for you, I just went to the library the other day and found dozens on books on how to make interviews, those are THE SAME books that social workers (or whatever they call it in your place) use and study to interview people like US. Read them and you'll have an idea of what do they look for, it's amazing. Of course Xog is right and if you have the doctor saying you are nuts then you've got it, but still, I find it interesting to see what they are looking for. This also applies when going to see a shrink. I mean these people are not magicians, they do things by the book, read the book then.
I know some would strongly disagree were I to suggest being honest about how you really feel.
This thread has been enlightening for me. I think in my case I'll say as little as possible or I'll end up tying myself in knots. I will only tell the truth, but there are two sides to the truth. The one the Department will accept - that I've suffered work-related depression - and one they won't - that I don't want to work anyway.
Yes, it's like that for a lot of us, I'm sure. It is for me, anyway. Happily, most of the authorities will interpret your lack of desire to work as a symptom of mental illness rather than any sort of legitimate rational position. Although it's certainly best not to parade your work-refusal around like a badge of honor in front of them, it won't necessarily kill one's case if they manage to get wind of it somehow. As long as they are able to draw the conclusion that you don't want to work because you're a nutjob, it doesn't matter much what one's own view of the matter is.
Those who make these determinations are well aware that a lot of people don't want to work, and they figure most of them must be crazy. After all, work and money are the primary values in our society. What sane person would reject them? I know of a guy in Austrailia who went in and told them flat-out that he saw himself as perfectly sane, but he couldn't be bothered to work because his goal was to pursue philosophy until he attained enlightenment and became a Buddha. He had no trouble getting approved. Then again, this might not go over as smoothly in America.
Again, xog's advice is quite sound and is worth reading, although I admit I've never heard of someone getting on SSI within 2 weeks of their claim. I didn't even know it was possible. If xog did so, all the more reason to look to him as the real expert here.
Eh, sorry to say but to feign mental illness to excuse yourself from getting a job sounds like a deceptive tactic to me, a form of welfare chiseling. I admire dropping out of the society, but not dishonest welfare chiseling.
If just being honest about how you really feel is considered "insane" by society's standards, then it is not at all deceitful.
Bah. Why not. If we don't look out for ourselves in this **** up society, no-one else will. I'd rather not lie. But if it comes down to telling lies or suffering greatly, I'm telling lies.
I would have entered a response here, but I think Nat (who I call Q) fields this appropriately.
Eh, sorry to say but to feign mental illness to excuse yourself from getting a job sounds like a deceptive tactic to me, a form of welfare chiseling. I admire dropping out of the society, but not dishonest welfare chiseling.
Who suggested that? I and others have stressed repeatedly that lying or misrepresenting the facts is not encouraged. One has to have actual problems and a legitimate case, or they aren't going to get approved. I said that every way I know how, but somehow the "welfare cheating" bell went off in your head anyway.
That's very typical of this culture.
Incidentally, how is anyone really going to "drop out" without a steady income of some sort? For most people, it's pure fantasy. And those who actually do manage it are probably crazier than those on disability for mental illness. I'm all for a good dose of non-conformism, but I have no intention of eating out of a dumpster.
OK. Now the heat gets turned up a bit. This is the conflict being played out in our society every day. By the way, just as an aside, while reading through this, imagine the fact that Ted Kacynski lived on $1000 per year when he was living in the cabin in Montana and he was/is a mathematical genius. Meanwhile, Donald Trump - another multimillion dollar moron. Amerika, Amerika, god shed his grace on thee ...
Incidentally, how is anyone really going to "drop out" without a steady income of some sort? For most people, it's pure fantasy. And those who actually do manage it are probably crazier than those on disability for mental illness. I'm all for a good dose of non-conformism, but I have no intention of eating out of a dumpster.
I don't imagine Ran Prieur being a welfare recipient. He lives on about 3000 a year, and he was living on 2000 when he dumpster dived. Also, the author of Possum Living who knows a fair bit on how to get by with minimum amount of money states explicit disdain for welfare chiselers at one point. Like it or not, but welfare derives from taxes those miserable wage slaves have to pay. I want to get free, but not at the expense of others.
Income tax wasn't listed on the budget, as you may have noticed. We don't pay any, because we never have enough income to require paying. Do you realize what a luxury that is? The rotten swindlers in Washington aren't lining their pockets with my money. I'm not paying the welfare chiselers to breed like flies. The idiotic federal giveaway programs don't cost me anything.
I don't imagine Ran Prieur being a welfare recipient. He lives on about 3000 a year, and he was living on 2000 when he dumpster dived.
Prieur is still a mooch though. His house sit in Spokane that he always talks about is his mother's house. She pays him to house sit for her while she travels. That's not exactly proof that he's "dropped out" legitimetely imo. I'm sure her plans are somewhat dependent on him. And the whole getting paid to housesit?! C'mon, there's no way she'd pay a stranger. Most people expect you to pay utilities and in exchange you get a free place. Or if they have a bunch of pets or something else that requires a little more attention, they might spring for the utilities. By the sounds of it, not only does he not have to pay anything apart from his own food, but she pays him just for being there. Only a mom would do that.
Like it or not, but welfare derives from taxes those miserable wage slaves have to pay. I want to get free, but not at the expense of others.
Me, I don't really care. Where I live, were I to go on welfare, it would cost each income tax payer $0.0009 to support me every month. What's the big deal? The argument of "Well if everybody did it blah blah blah", doesn't concern me because this will never catch on anyway, and, I just really don't care. Let's bankrupt the gov't, I don't give a ****. And besides, it's there for people who can't work, or have problems working. I get depressed when I have job, bad things go in my head. Would you rather see me suffer than take nine millioninths of a **** cent every month?
Good point yougetajob. Look what the tax payers are willing to spend on to keep you in a cage should you lose it at a job you hate ... or how much goes to keep the generals living high on the hog down in Miami (in the USA, that is). The reason I keep returning to these discussions is because I want to face these arguments ... As long as we were being so honest, it can actually be considered an anthropological exploration of industrial society on the brink of a major transition phase ...
The quotes may be familiar, but I leave them in place to show clearly who and what each Thinker is responding to. So, for posterity (maybe after we're dead - so we don't give a
**** about "what others will think of us") ... we were being honest. Another miracle.
By the way, I don't even know if some of these contributors are even alive anymore, so consider this a Labor of Love.
miracleI don't imagine Ran Prieur being a welfare recipient. He lives on about 3000 a year, and he was living on 2000 when he dumpster dived. Also, the author of Possum Living who knows a fair bit on how to get by with minimum amount of money states explicit disdain for welfare chiselers at one point.
You keep using this derisive term "welfare chiselers." Let's get down to business, then. Please state which participants in this thread you think of as "chiselers." Name it and claim it.
As for Priuer, I don't know who he is, but if he wants to eat possum and crawl into dumpsters, that's his concern, I suppose. I don't feel like I (or anyone else) should have to resort to such things in the 21st century, in the richest nation in the world. To me, that is ridiculous.
Like it or not, but welfare derives from taxes those miserable wage slaves have to pay. I want to get free, but not at the expense of others.
Most people who work do not feel like "miserable wage slaves." People who see work as we do are a tiny minority. I'd be glad to refund the nickel I will collect from each such person over my lifetime. Send a SASE.
Income tax wasn't listed on the budget, as you may have noticed. We don't pay any, because we never have enough income to require paying. Do you realize what a luxury that is? The rotten swindlers in Washington aren't lining their pockets with my money. I'm not paying the welfare chiselers to breed like flies. The idiotic federal giveaway programs don't cost me anything.
That's fine. This person clearly does not feel that all human beings are entitled to the necessities of life as a basic human right. The bitterness in the writer's tone is identical to that of any typical right-winger regarding this subject. So much anger over someone else's freedom.
I guess to those who have this "welfare chiselers" mentality, I am a nightmare. I feel that every citizen in the United States should be protected by a universal safety net, so that anyone who falls below the poverty line is subsidized appropriately regardless of employment considerations. In my view, the necessities of life must be treated as a basic human right if we intend to call this a "civilization."
Eh, sorry to say but to feign mental illness to excuse yourself from getting a job sounds like a deceptive tactic to me, a form of welfare chiseling. I admire dropping out of the society, but not dishonest welfare chiseling.
I really see no problem at all at getting free money from the state. The budget they use for this kind of thing is very small, it all goes to tanks or their hyper wealthy friends (they can steal 1000 million bucks but we can't get a small cheque?
WTF). The world is a hard place and I find it stupid not to get a cheque if you can get it, you are not actually stealing from the poor but from the [corporate] state.
No one is advocating "stealing" anything here. I agree with the thrust of your post, but I think we have to be very careful about validating certain terms. Personally, I would not suggest that anyone who honestly feels they could work without experiencing major psychological problems to go on the dole. Under the current system, that would be fraud, and I don't advocate fraud even "on principle."
In an ideal system (the one I favor), there would be no possibility of fraud because everyone would have access to basic income support anytime they wanted it. But under the current system, getting benefits requires a disability. If one is disabled in some sense, then one is legitimately entitled to support under the current system by law. There is no element of "stealing" involved.
Like we've said here for more than a 1.000 years:
He, who steals from a thief, must be forgiven.
TAXES ARE THEFT
Period.
I actually wrote Ran Prieur himself, and he said that he thinks it's ok to take advantage of the domination systems (that's what government basically is) in order to weaken or undermine it. The real parasitism is feeding off a beneficial system without giving anything back. That helped me to view things in other light. I no longer have a stance this rigid on welfare.
I know of someone who did spend many months developing a claim while running a game on a psychologist. He got ahold of the dianostic manual used, studied his chosen nut bag, and dressed and played the part to the hilt. Once awarded his claim, he was on SSI for years. Then decided he was bored with doing nothing and the limits his nut case status offered him.
Thanks Xog! You highlighted a point which is still why I would not really go on welfare. When you are collecting the dole check, you can only do it so long as you do nothing which generates even the slightest bit of income for you (aside from maybe can scavenging). What if I have activities that I like doing and generate a bit of income for me (speaking for myself, I occasionally write music reviews and I get them published for a bit of money. It's nice, I'd love to do it more often but that alone may not support me)? Or if I have a brilliant self-employment idea? My income will be cut off if I start pursuing self-employment and it might take a lot of time before I can actually make it work. Which means I'd have to take a Shitty job again before I can actually earn enough revenue from the self-employment idea.
TAXES ARE THEFT
Period.
Nah, I don't see it that way. In my view, society as a whole makes it possible for any any individual to acquire income. Therefore, it is reasonable to require individuals to "give back," particularly when the society has enabled them to do very well.
For me, it's like a sliding scale. I do have moral objections to taxing the poor. The poor owe little or nothing, because the system has done little or nothing for them. But those who are better off have a proportionately larger obligation. If society has made it possible for me to lounge around in the Olympic size swimming pool all day, I have a pretty big moral obligation to "give back" to the system that has allowed me such an enviable lifestyle. But if I am struggling just to pay the bills every month, the system hasn't worked well for me and my obligation is small. This is essentially the philosophical basis of a progressive tax structure.
All this talk of "theft" and "stealing" on the WhyWork forums is rather bothersome to me. Doesn't it occur to anyone that we are our brother's keeper? That everyone is owed a living? That the only real "theft" is denying anyone the basic necessities of life?
I know these ideas are unthinkable in the mainstream, but I would have expected them to be more prevalent here.
"brother's keeper" right on, Nat. Something about the attitude of ignoring what keeps one's energy right with the whole feels bothersome. My income is as I said. With that freedom from work, whatever I do that benifits others, I do freely. I don't put a price on it. One reason I like Freecycle so much. The return energy is always well in balance.
Very significant ... At this point I will inject something from my favorite ghost, Schopenhauer:
The old genuine Cynics, Antisthenes, Diogenes, Crates, and their disciples, renounced every possession, all conveniences and pleasures, once and for all, in order to escape forever the troubles and cares, the dependence and pains, that are bound up with them, and for which they are no compensation. The genuine Cynics put up with what they could get for virtually nothing. They begged occasionally, but they did not work. Independence in the widest sense was their goal. They spent their lives resting, walking about, talking with everyone, and in scoffing, laughing, and joking. Their characteristics were heedlessness and great cheerfulness. Since they had no aims of their own, no purposes and intentions to pursue, enjoying complete leisure, they became councilors of others. (Schopenhauer)
Sometimes, back in my hometown, when I would be extremely troubled and just wandering about in deep psychological pain, it would be a homeless man resting on a bench who would share a drink and listen to my troubles ... consoling me like a modern-day Cynic.
If you want credibility, don't scam, get an education (buy into the brainwashing) and career (become a work slave), wear over priced clothes (be focused on and value surface appearance), buy a house (don't trust the universe will provide), believe in a supreme other (surrender authority over your inner self) and vote for the ruling party (watch everyone else get locked up).
I've done the education and working thing and I've dropped out for good.
This morning I went to see the doctor to renew my sick note for Incapacity Benefit (IB). I predicted it would be tough and I wasn't wrong. When I told him I couldn't face going back to work - ever, he became sceptical. "You agree that people feel better when they're in work than when they're not," he said. When I showed doubt he actually said, "I want you to agree with me!" I persisted, telling him that I had not felt better in work. After a further exchange I said that, on balance, I would rather be homeless. "If you would rather be homeless than in work there must be something wrong," he said. Only when I agreed to go to the psychiatric service for counselling did he give me a sick note. On the way out I heard him go, "Tsh!"
Either he thinks I'm scamming it or mentally ill.
I think in further meetings with counsellors or Jobcentre interviewers I'll use stronger language, for example, that I find work intolerable to the point that the thought of having to get a job makes me suicidal (which is true).
Even if I am ultimately refused IB I will never have a job again, whatever the cost.
"You agree that people feel better when they're in work than when they're not" --
What? did he really say that? He must be a true believer then. I guess this guy has a horrible time when he's on vacation, having sex, dancing, playing with his kids or socializing.
I think the "I'd rather be homeless than hold a job" will open you many doors, I wouldn't push it, these people don't want to hear they are wrong.