Author Topic: Supporting Nat's Bold Stand  (Read 751 times)

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Supporting Nat's Bold Stand
« on: July 21, 2014, 09:34:44 pm »
A very powerful and empowering attitude here in 2008:

Quote from: Q
As for the solution to putting food on the table, disability is the way to go if you can qualify. Got a history of problems? A bad work history is a good start. If you feel you can't work without undergoing major psychological problems, you're halfway there. One benefit of our culture's bizarre love affair with pretending that work is good is that those who repeatedly reuse to work may qualify as mentally ill - and that means free money. Better yet, it's money they can't spend on bombs and pollution. Getting on disability is not only an excellent way to get your freedom, it can also be viewed as a public service. Every dollar you collect is one less they can use to build tanks and prisons.

Of course, the social stigma is what usually stops people from applying, but if you're already a work-refuser and "general malcontent," who cares?
If you're anti-job, it's a safe bet you're already written off by society - so why not at least get minimally compensated for it?

Quote from: yougetajob
I'm glad you popped in when you did Nat. I've been leaning this way for a while. I don't have money to pay my costs for February, so I have to do something, and I REALLY don't want to get a job. I'm so much happier now.

I've got the bad work history cased I think. I'm not so sure of the other stuff. It's very subjective. How do I convince them of the problems I have when I have a job? I know they'll try to corner me with stuff like "So you're saying you can't work AT ALL?" To which I might sorta bend to them and say "Well, I suppose I COULD, if the conditions were right" etc etc. Do you know what I mean? Do you have any tips on how to avoid that whole game?

Quote from: Q
Yeah. The biggest tip is just to answer "no" and "never" to all questions about work. Do you feel you could work at all? No. When do you expect to be able to work again? Never. What type of job do you feel you could do? None.

If you indicate any ability to work either now or in the future, you're probably going to get denied. Make it clear that you feel you can't work because it causes you too many problems and you don't expect that to change.

Don't lie about anything. Just tell the truth about how work causes you problems and you have trouble holding a job because of it. Tell them how long it's been that way and that you expect it to stay that way (because it probably will).

Remember, the disability examiner doesn't care if you could work with a gun to your head, or in a perfect ideal world. They care about whether you can work consistently and comfortably at a typical job under normal conditions. If you can't do that (and I'm assuming you can't), just say so.

Quote from: xog
Question: What is the "right condition" for work for? And do you think you will find it? Like, does such a thing really exist?

Once, when in a similar position, the interviewer chuckled and said I just needed the "right people" to work with. I've since been dianosed with PTSD, so, really, for me there are no right people.

You need to be clear within yourself and sure about why you can't work, so you can be clear with them. For me, it was that I do not relate to heirarchy. I am clear we are all on our own two feet. So at every job I confidently related to the boss straight across as a peer. He was on his two feet. I was on mine. If he didn't like what I had to say, **** him. Also, I talked to the interviewer straight across. Consistancy in one's rap in nessessary. He's there to do me service, not mess with me. When he messed with me I showed my ire rather then bent over or became doubtful. Some bosses like being treated even, and see it as worthy of promotion. Most don't, because they like their master role in the slave/master relationship. And people/slaves who have worked there a long time, sucking up, back stabbing etc. to claw their way to their present position, with pride no less, surely don't like my attitude at all, because it exposes them to themselves and everyone else for the chumps they are. They set very inventive traps to get me to quit or get canned or even killed. One place they even cut my car's brake line. Another they moved equipment when I was busy with fast heavy work so I would hurt my back. I just described to the interviewer various situations where those things happened. It was a long list. I had over 100 jobs. I gave it a fair chance at working out. It just didn't. I was just honest with the interviewer about it, looking him in the eyes the whole time, with nothing to hide, no gaming, and taking no sideways **** from him/her. You are allowed to have pride in yourself, no matter how society views someone who can't work. It's better that than being proud about cutting someone's brake line. I had so many examples, from all the jobs I tried to work at, that the interview took a longer time than the interviewer was prepared to spend. He cut my stories off and gave me what I wanted, as he was supposed to do by his own job's definition. If you don't "know" you can't work, you won't be able to pull it off. Just not wanting to work isn't enough, and being sort of willing to try again isn't enough to communicate your need, because there is no real need to communicate.

Quote from: Q
Right. You can't go in there with the attitude of "let's give not working a shot and see how it turns out." The examiners will pick up on that and try to get you to admit that there is some job you could do instead. You have to go in there with a clear understanding that the whole job experience is not for you and you need a permanent alternative.

Also, a history of treatment for psychological problems helps a lot. Without that, you're going to have an uphill battle making your case. Any counseling, medication, or hospitalization you have on your record will be a plus.

Quote from: yougetajob
Thanks guys. This has been really constructive for me.

Quote
   
Also, a history of treatment for psychological problems helps a lot. Without that, you're going to have an uphill battle making your case. Any counseling, medication, or hospitalization you have on your record will be a plus.
   

Well, I've got that.

Nat, could you talk further on this: "One benefit of our culture's bizarre love affair with pretending that work is good is that those who repeatedly refuse to work may qualify as mentally ill."

Are you saying that that might be enough on it's own?  Like if the examiner said "You know that if you refuse to work that you might starve right?" - and then answering "yup"?

Quote from: xog
Maybe, "I've gone without meals more than a few times. I know. That's why I need help."

To expand on your other question, sane or normal is decided by ratios and culture. The culture is definitely work ethic wage slavery, which was arrived at by the majority doing it. Anyone not doing it has to be considered some kind of abnormal to justify continuing the work ethic wage slavery, to keep that ship from springing a leak. By the statistics used to keep that boat afloat, anyone not able to work is abnormal. It's not a stretch to admit to abnormality if one can't work. It's the going definition of reality. Like history, that is decided by the elite, who, interestingly, often do not work. But noone ever mentions that. And it's better you don't mention that. Just express your sense of inability to be like everyone else and how big a bummer it is. Going in smiling about that will make you look like a scammer in their eyes. Desparation, alienation, and inability to relate to how things are, not aesthetically but functionally, are key to your case working for you. By their standards you are nuts. If you need to, to yourself call it being polite to agree. It's the slot they allow for people like you. Whatever you do, do not show aggression, because aggression will get you locked up for yours and everyone else's safety. Again, their standards applied there. It is, after all, they who are in charge. Part of why this slide works is because it acknowledges their authority, empowers them, and cops to a disempowerment of yourself. Within their system, that is true. And we do live within their system. No gaming there. They just want their system acknowledged as the happening thing. "It will mean you won't be able to get some jobs." <--That little carrot was what was dangled in front of me when when it came to the wire of someone signing the appropriate papers for me to get SSI. Being naturally curious, I asked what jobs and was told "Government jobs for instance." Broke my heart, I tell ya. ;-) (Note: I did not smile) My response to that was to shrug and say "Well, I can't work any jobs. I know that. My work history proves that. So, what's the difference?" In truth, I couldn't and can't. And in truth, there is no difference. My reasons are as much physical as mental. I have a back injury and PTSD from Vietnam. It helped that the shrink I was working with was a Nam vet, in that he and I had a common language and perception, because he understood what I was saying and I understood what he was saying.

Quote from: Q
Quote
Are you saying that that might be enough on it's own?
Like if the examiner said "You know that if you refuse to work that you might starve right?" - and then answering "yup"?

It could potentially help, yes. Put on your "normal person hat" for a moment and think about how our actual ideas regarding work might sound to a "mainstream" person. Let's take my views, for example:

"I am unable to work because I feel entitled to be provided with the necessities of life as a basic human right, and I find all forms of coerced employment demeaning and offensive. All of my attempts to work fail because I cannot stop thinking that I am being abused, enslaved, and degraded by a system I despise. In addition, I feel that employment hinders the pursuit of philosophical and spiritual goals, detracting from the pursuit of values which actually matter. All of this leads to an irresistible urge to escape, which may manifest as anything from a recurring poor attitude to literally fleeing the jobsite."

In other words, in mainstream eyes, these are the statements of a nut case. Whacko. Narcissistic entitlement complex. Paranoid tendencies. Delusions of grandeur. Megalomaniac. Dangerously unstable. Loony as a jay bird.

So yeah, it could help. Don't go overboard, though. Just tell them how you feel, and what problems you experience, and how work is untenable for you. If your work history and your psychological record are consistent with your claims, you have a good chance of being approved.

Quote
They just want their system acknowledged as the happening thing. "It will mean you won't be able to get some jobs." <--That little carrot was what was dangled in front of me when when it came to the wire of someone signing the appropriate papers for me to get SSI. Being naturally curious, I asked what jobs and was told "Government jobs for instance." Broke my heart, I tell ya. Wink (Note: I did not smile) My response to that was to shrug and say "Well, I can't work any jobs. I know that. My work history proves that. So, what's the difference?" In truth, I couldn't and can't. And in truth, there is no difference.

xog knows the score. His posts are full of sound advice regarding all of this. I'd echo his admonition not to go in there acting like you've got the world beat in your own mind (even if you do), just because that's not what they want to see. The side you want to present to them is the one that is disturbed, alienated, bitter, and resentful at having to live like dirt while your moral and spiritual inferiors are being praised to the skies for their ignorance and greed.

Not only is this sort of thing quite possibly very truthful (I know it is my case), but it also makes you look plenty nutty in their eyes, which is always a plus. And anger issues are not off-limits, either, as long as you only describe them and do not show any aggressive tendencies during the process (to avoid getting committed, as xog points out).

But again, there's no need to go overboard. This is all just for the sake of discussion, and you don't want to actually write lengthy essays or diatribes on the application form. Just condense it down to some basic points that resonate with you, describe why work is not a viable option in clear, real-world terms, and be honest while also doing your best to present a winning case.

get a job
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 10:13:54 pm by H »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

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Re: Nat's Bold Stand
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2014, 09:48:55 pm »
Quote from: Drift
Quote from: yougetajob
I don't have a clear, precise reason, that really resonates with me, that I can give to someone, that would explain why working a job makes me feel the way I feel.

I can understand this. I'm in much the same position. I've just applied for Incapacity Benefit in the UK. If I'm still on it in a few weeks (which seems likely) then I'll be called in to the Jobcentre for an interview.

Some of the key points I'm going to make are:

- I find work literally intolerable. I walked out on a previous job at a critical time, when they expected everyone to apply themselves before a deadline.

- Nobody benefits from me being in work. I was unproductive in all my jobs. I did as much work in 18 months as most of my colleagues could have done in three weeks. Other people noticed this, making them resentful.

- No amount of encouragement, criticism, threats or punishment (from either myself or anyone else) could motivate me to work. The more pressure was put on me, the less well I was able to function (hence the walking-out).

- The reward/punishment method used in the workplace has no effect on me. I'm not motivated by money or praise.

There are other reasons, which I will write about shortly, but I hope I have helped prompt your memory.

Quote from: Q
Drift,

That's a good list. All of those things are true for me as well, and it gets right to the point of why work doesn't work for us. I think you'll do well making those points to the examiners.

yougetajob,

Quote
I have doubts that they'll see my case as being legitimate enough.

So much time has passed since I had a real 9-5 job, that my memory of what they were like isn't very vivid. Also, I don't have a clear, precise reason, that really resonates with me, that I can give to someone, that would explain why working a job makes me feel the way I feel. And like I said, I don't really remember what it is I feel, other than Shitty. Maybe I just need to sit down with a pen and paper and just sort it out. Things may start to come together then.


Well, I'm officially on disability for "cyclothymic disorder" (mild bipolar). Really, they just need something to write down to get the claim approved. I probably do have cyclothymic disorder, in addition to a couple of personality disorders and who knows what else. I've had a number of diagnoses, but the only one Social Security is going by appears to be the cyclothymia. Do you have any existing diagnoses from doctors?

Quote from: yougetajob
Nat,

About six years ago I was taking Paxil for depression and symptoms of social anxiety disorder. I took it for about a year and a half I think. I wasn't really interested in any kind of psychological treatment sessions or anything, so I just did whatever I needed to keep getting the paxil, which was to see my regular doctor every few months. Once I felt I didn't need it anymore, I stopped taking it. I think after that I developed other ways of coping. I was still depressed most of this time, especially when I left college and started working again. I could have easily been diagnosed as depressed during this time too. And I still had anxiety, but it was more general. So ya, to answer your question, no, I don't have any current diagnosis of mental illness. Nor do I think that I have any. But I'm pretty sure this is because I haven't had to work a full time job in almost two years.

What do you think all of that's worth?

Hmm... well, frankly, probably not a whole lot. I apologize if I've given you the wrong idea. It's pretty much impossible to "pull a fast one" on these people, so to speak. You have to be "officially nuts" to get on disability in America, and you have to be able to document it. They are pretty stringent about that sort of thing, because they hate giving it to anyone at all. I'd feel much more confident about your chances if there was a more extensive mental health history, ideally including at least one current diagnosis and at least one visit to a facility of some kind in the past, preferably not self-referred.

I'm not saying you have no case. I don't know that and you may very well have enough to slide by, especially if you fill out the application properly. However, based on what you've just told me, I'm not too optimistic about your first application. They deny a lot of people the first time they apply.

That said, there are a ton of lawyers out there who specialize in getting people approved after being denied on their first application. Usually they will get you approved retroactively, which means a large lump sum payment at first. They will take a good chunk of the initial payment, but after that you're in the clear. My first application was denied. I re-applied (without a lawyer) and was approved. I think that a large part of it is just their desire to screen out those who will take no for an answer and not bother to re-apply.

This is not an easy process. It can take a year or more, and you there are no guarantees even then. But if you truly can't stand to work, you'll see no alternative. It's only to be pursued if you're really dead serious about not working ever again. Otherwise, I'd say forget it.

Don't be in a hurry if you aren't being put out on the street anytime soon. It's a big decision and should be very carefully considered. If you have a semi-comfortable situation currently, there's no reason not to stick with that as long as you can. I wouldn't have pursued disability myself if I wasn't getting thrown out into the street every couple of months.

Quote from: yougetajob
Huh. I for sure wouldn't have much of a shot where you are. By the sounds of what you wrote, things are a bit different there than here.

For example, last winter I was actally on welfare. In my interview I said that I became depressed when I had a job, and that I didn't know why. At the interview, I had to come up with a "action plan" with the interviewer that layed out what I was going to do to get back in the workforce. Mainly this involved seeing a mental health counsellor. So I saw her maybe 5 times in 4 months. This was sufficent for me to keep getting cheques. My case worker was a real softie though, and didn't really do things according to their policy manual (which I have). At the end of my run on welfare they told me I had a new worker. Perhpahs the one I had wasn't doing things by the book and was let go, I don't know. I only talked to this new worker once, and she was preasuring me to get a medical report filled out, if indeed it was a medical reason that was preventing me from work. I didn't think the counsellor (the dept. said her opinion would suffice) would fill out the form the way I wanted (i.e. - this guy can't work), and I was about to receive a big income tax refund anyway (which would have been subtracted off of any benefits - I wouldn't have gotten any benefits for about 7 months), so I just let the whole thing slide. This probably wasn't the best thing to do, as it looks a bit suspicious. I hadn't planned on trying to get back on though.

So anyway, ya, I was able to get benefits for 5 months, on the premise of a medical condition (which at the time I didn't really believe I had - now, I think I do.), without much fuss.

So the whole time I was on it last time I wasn't really categorized as anything. I was kinda just in limbo. I've since gone over the policy manual, and it does kinda look like my initial case worker didn't really follow procedure, but I think that even if my new worker does follow procedure, that I'll have a decent shot. And if I make it, it'll be under the category of "unemployable", which means very little if any hassle.

I guess it all depends on the kind of worker I get. Maybe there's more like that first one I had. If not, I may not have to be too concerned with medical reports and all that stuff. But if I do, I think I've got a decent shot at getting a a doctor or psychologist, or perhaps that counsellor, to agree with and believe the reasons that I come up with why I can't work. But I'm by no means certain.

Quote from: Debbie
Drift:

I'd love to hear how you get on with your IB claim. I was there myself last year and I found the staff get a bit threatening if you don't fit into their tickboxes and refuse their 'Help you find a job' schemes.

Even though I had sicknotes and a personal letter from my doctor, they still stopped my money for 3 weeks because they said I gave up work voluntarily. Although my 'Incapacity' was physical, they almost said they didn't believe me or the doctor. (apparently a six-inch scar up the middle of your tummy isn't proof you've had an operation)

So please, let us know what happens - others may benefit from your experience.

Dx

Quote from: Drift
Debbie, sounds like you got a tough group of staff. I think people with physical ailments have a difficult time getting IB. I knew of a man who had a triple bypass operation, yet, at his interview, was put on Jobseekers' Allowance because he could move a pen from one desk to another.

I'm hoping that mental problems can get you more lenient treatment. Nobody wants to employ a "nutter". I'm going to point out the fact that I've been psychotically depressed a couple of times, and am currently on fluoxetine.

In any case, I'm resolved never to work again no matter what the consequences. I'm going to fight all attempts to get me to sign up for "Action Plans" and "Fit4Work" schemes. My previous times in work were so unpleasant that - while I hope it doesn't come to this - even homelessness is more acceptable.

Incidentally, I've just checked my Post Office account. There should be a week's JSA in there, but it's empty, and my IB forms haven't arrived. There could be trouble.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 05:30:24 pm by H »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

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Re: Supporting Nat's Bold Stand
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2014, 11:23:45 pm »
Quote from: Drift
This thread has been enlightening for me. I think in my case I'll say as little as possible or I'll end up tying myself in knots. I will only tell the truth, but there are two sides to the truth. The one the Department will accept - that I've suffered work-related depression - and one they won't - that I don't want to work anyway.

The reason why I find this thread so fascinating is the level of honesty displayed ... We were sincerely getting to the bottom of it.  Heaven forbid the youth should be tempted to be so honest!

Quote from: 1984
This is a quite interesting thread! I just stoped by to say the following:

If you are going to any interview please rehearse the sentences you are going to say at home, not just think about what you are going to say, say it loudly when you are alone, hence when you have to repeat it it will sound much more credible.

Also please consider to study a little bit, make it fun for you, I just went to the library the other day and found dozens on books on how to make interviews, those are THE SAME books that social workers (or whatever they call it in your place) use and study to interview people like US. Read them and you'll have an idea of what do they look for, it's amazing. Of course Xog is right and if you have the doctor saying you are nuts then you've got it, but still, I find it interesting to see what they are looking for. This also applies when going to see a shrink. I mean these people are not magicians, they do things by the book, read the book then.

I know some would strongly disagree were I to suggest being honest about how you really feel.

Quote from: Q
Quote
This thread has been enlightening for me. I think in my case I'll say as little as possible or I'll end up tying myself in knots. I will only tell the truth, but there are two sides to the truth. The one the Department will accept - that I've suffered work-related depression - and one they won't - that I don't want to work anyway.

Yes, it's like that for a lot of us, I'm sure. It is for me, anyway. Happily, most of the authorities will interpret your lack of desire to work as a symptom of mental illness rather than any sort of legitimate rational position. Although it's certainly best not to parade your work-refusal around like a badge of honor in front of them, it won't necessarily kill one's case if they manage to get wind of it somehow. As long as they are able to draw the conclusion that you don't want to work because you're a nutjob, it doesn't matter much what one's own view of the matter is.

Those who make these determinations are well aware that a lot of people don't want to work, and they figure most of them must be crazy. After all, work and money are the primary values in our society. What sane person would reject them? I know of a guy in Austrailia who went in and told them flat-out that he saw himself as perfectly sane, but he couldn't be bothered to work because his goal was to pursue philosophy until he attained enlightenment and became a Buddha. He had no trouble getting approved. Then again, this might not go over as smoothly in America.

Again, xog's advice is quite sound and is worth reading, although I admit I've never heard of someone getting on SSI within 2 weeks of their claim. I didn't even know it was possible. If xog did so, all the more reason to look to him as the real expert here.

Quote from: freethinker
Eh, sorry to say but to feign mental illness to excuse yourself from getting a job sounds like a deceptive tactic to me, a form of welfare chiseling. I admire dropping out of the society, but not dishonest welfare chiseling.

If just being honest about how you really feel is considered "insane" by society's standards, then it is not at all deceitful.

Quote from: yougetajob
Bah. Why not. If we don't look out for ourselves in this **** up society, no-one else will. I'd rather not lie. But if it comes down to telling lies or suffering greatly, I'm telling lies.

I would have entered a response here, but I think Nat (who I call Q) fields this appropriately.

Quote from: Q
Quote
Eh, sorry to say but to feign mental illness to excuse yourself from getting a job sounds like a deceptive tactic to me, a form of welfare chiseling. I admire dropping out of the society, but not dishonest welfare chiseling.

Who suggested that? I and others have stressed repeatedly that lying or misrepresenting the facts is not encouraged. One has to have actual problems and a legitimate case, or they aren't going to get approved. I said that every way I know how, but somehow the "welfare cheating" bell went off in your head anyway.

That's very typical of this culture.

Incidentally, how is anyone really going to "drop out" without a steady income of some sort? For most people, it's pure fantasy. And those who actually do manage it are probably crazier than those on disability for mental illness. I'm all for a good dose of non-conformism, but I have no intention of eating out of a dumpster.

OK.  Now the heat gets turned up a bit.  This is the conflict being played out in our society every day.  By the way, just as an aside, while reading through this, imagine the fact that Ted Kacynski lived on $1000 per year when he was living in the cabin in Montana and he was/is a mathematical genius.  Meanwhile, Donald Trump - another multimillion dollar moron.  Amerika, Amerika, god shed his grace on thee ...

Quote from: freethinker
Quote from: Nat (Q)
Incidentally, how is anyone really going to "drop out" without a steady income of some sort? For most people, it's pure fantasy. And those who actually do manage it are probably crazier than those on disability for mental illness. I'm all for a good dose of non-conformism, but I have no intention of eating out of a dumpster.
   

I don't imagine Ran Prieur being a welfare recipient. He lives on about 3000 a year, and he was living on 2000 when he dumpster dived. Also, the author of Possum Living who knows a fair bit on how to get by with minimum amount of money states explicit disdain for welfare chiselers at one point. Like it or not, but welfare derives from taxes those miserable wage slaves have to pay. I want to get free, but not at the expense of others.

Quote from: Dolly Freed
Income tax wasn't listed on the budget, as you may have noticed. We don't pay any, because we never have enough income to require paying. Do you realize what a luxury that is? The rotten swindlers in Washington aren't lining their pockets with my money. I'm not paying the welfare chiselers to breed like flies. The idiotic federal giveaway programs don't cost me anything.

Quote from: yougetajob
Quote
I don't imagine Ran Prieur being a welfare recipient. He lives on about 3000 a year, and he was living on 2000 when he dumpster dived.

Prieur is still a mooch though. His house sit in Spokane that he always talks about is his mother's house. She pays him to house sit for her while she travels. That's not exactly proof that he's "dropped out" legitimetely imo. I'm sure her plans are somewhat dependent on him. And the whole getting paid to housesit?! C'mon, there's no way she'd pay a stranger. Most people expect you to pay utilities and in exchange you get a free place. Or if they have a bunch of pets or something else that requires a little more attention, they might spring for the utilities. By the sounds of it, not only does he not have to pay anything apart from his own food, but she pays him just for being there. Only a mom would do that.

Quote
Like it or not, but welfare derives from taxes those miserable wage slaves have to pay. I want to get free, but not at the expense of others.

Me, I don't really care. Where I live, were I to go on welfare, it would cost each income tax payer $0.0009 to support me every month. What's the big deal? The argument of "Well if everybody did it blah blah blah", doesn't concern me because this will never catch on anyway, and, I just really don't care. Let's bankrupt the gov't, I don't give a ****. And besides, it's there for people who can't work, or have problems working. I get depressed when I have job, bad things go in my head. Would you rather see me suffer than take nine millioninths of a **** cent every month?

Good point yougetajob.  Look what the tax payers are willing to spend on to keep you in a cage should you lose it at a job you hate ... or how much goes to keep the generals living high on the hog down in Miami (in the USA, that is).  The reason I keep returning to these discussions is because I want to face these arguments ... As long as we were being so honest, it can actually be considered an anthropological exploration of industrial society on the brink of a major transition phase ...

The quotes may be familiar, but I leave them in place to show clearly who and what each Thinker is responding to.  So, for posterity (maybe after we're dead - so we don't give a **** about "what others will think of us") ... we were being honest.  Another miracle.

By the way, I don't even know if some of these contributors are even alive anymore, so consider this a Labor of Love.

miracle

Quote from: Q
Quote
I don't imagine Ran Prieur being a welfare recipient. He lives on about 3000 a year, and he was living on 2000 when he dumpster dived. Also, the author of Possum Living who knows a fair bit on how to get by with minimum amount of money states explicit disdain for welfare chiselers at one point.

You keep using this derisive term "welfare chiselers." Let's get down to business, then. Please state which participants in this thread you think of as "chiselers." Name it and claim it.

As for Priuer, I don't know who he is, but if he wants to eat possum and crawl into dumpsters, that's his concern, I suppose. I don't feel like I (or anyone else) should have to resort to such things in the 21st century, in the richest nation in the world. To me, that is ridiculous.

Quote
Like it or not, but welfare derives from taxes those miserable wage slaves have to pay. I want to get free, but not at the expense of others.

Most people who work do not feel like "miserable wage slaves." People who see work as we do are a tiny minority. I'd be glad to refund the nickel I will collect from each such person over my lifetime. Send a SASE.

Quote
Income tax wasn't listed on the budget, as you may have noticed. We don't pay any, because we never have enough income to require paying. Do you realize what a luxury that is? The rotten swindlers in Washington aren't lining their pockets with my money. I'm not paying the welfare chiselers to breed like flies. The idiotic federal giveaway programs don't cost me anything.

That's fine. This person clearly does not feel that all human beings are entitled to the necessities of life as a basic human right. The bitterness in the writer's tone is identical to that of any typical right-winger regarding this subject. So much anger over someone else's freedom.

I guess to those who have this "welfare chiselers" mentality, I am a nightmare. I feel that every citizen in the United States should be protected by a universal safety net, so that anyone who falls below the poverty line is subsidized appropriately regardless of employment considerations. In my view, the necessities of life must be treated as a basic human right if we intend to call this a "civilization."

Quote from: 1984
Quote from: freethinker
Eh, sorry to say but to feign mental illness to excuse yourself from getting a job sounds like a deceptive tactic to me, a form of welfare chiseling. I admire dropping out of the society, but not dishonest welfare chiseling.

I really see no problem at all at getting free money from the state. The budget they use for this kind of thing is very small, it all goes to tanks or their hyper wealthy friends (they can steal 1000 million bucks but we can't get a small cheque???? WTF). The world is a hard place and I find it stupid not to get a cheque if you can get it, you are not actually stealing from the poor but from the [corporate] state.

Quote from: Q
No one is advocating "stealing" anything here. I agree with the thrust of your post, but I think we have to be very careful about validating certain terms. Personally, I would not suggest that anyone who honestly feels they could work without experiencing major psychological problems to go on the dole. Under the current system, that would be fraud, and I don't advocate fraud even "on principle."

In an ideal system (the one I favor), there would be no possibility of fraud because everyone would have access to basic income support anytime they wanted it. But under the current system, getting benefits requires a disability. If one is disabled in some sense, then one is legitimately entitled to support under the current system by law. There is no element of "stealing" involved.

Quote from: 1984
Like we've said here for more than a 1.000 years:

He, who steals from a thief, must be forgiven.

TAXES ARE THEFT

Period.

Quote from: freethinker
I actually wrote Ran Prieur himself, and he said that he thinks it's ok to take advantage of the domination systems (that's what government basically is) in order to weaken or undermine it. The real parasitism is feeding off a beneficial system without giving anything back. That helped me to view things in other light. I no longer have a stance this rigid on welfare.

Quote from: xog
I know of someone who did spend many months developing a claim while running a game on a psychologist. He got ahold of the dianostic manual used, studied his chosen nut bag, and dressed and played the part to the hilt. Once awarded his claim, he was on SSI for years. Then decided he was bored with doing nothing and the limits his nut case status offered him.   

Thanks Xog! You highlighted a point which is still why I would not really go on welfare. When you are collecting the dole check, you can only do it so long as you do nothing which generates even the slightest bit of income for you (aside from maybe can scavenging). What if I have activities that I like doing and generate a bit of income for me (speaking for myself, I occasionally write music reviews and I get them published for a bit of money. It's nice, I'd love to do it more often but that alone may not support me)? Or if I have a brilliant self-employment idea? My income will be cut off if I start pursuing self-employment and it might take a lot of time before I can actually make it work. Which means I'd have to take a Shitty job again before I can actually earn enough revenue from the self-employment idea.

Quote from: Q
Quote
TAXES ARE THEFT

Period.
Nah, I don't see it that way. In my view, society as a whole makes it possible for any any individual to acquire income. Therefore, it is reasonable to require individuals to "give back," particularly when the society has enabled them to do very well.

For me, it's like a sliding scale. I do have moral objections to taxing the poor. The poor owe little or nothing, because the system has done little or nothing for them. But those who are better off have a proportionately larger obligation. If society has made it possible for me to lounge around in the Olympic size swimming pool all day, I have a pretty big moral obligation to "give back" to the system that has allowed me such an enviable lifestyle. But if I am struggling just to pay the bills every month, the system hasn't worked well for me and my obligation is small. This is essentially the philosophical basis of a progressive tax structure.

All this talk of "theft" and "stealing" on the WhyWork forums is rather bothersome to me. Doesn't it occur to anyone that we are our brother's keeper? That everyone is owed a living? That the only real "theft" is denying anyone the basic necessities of life?

I know these ideas are unthinkable in the mainstream, but I would have expected them to be more prevalent here.

Quote from: xog
"brother's keeper" right on, Nat. Something about the attitude of ignoring what keeps one's energy right with the whole feels bothersome. My income is as I said. With that freedom from work, whatever I do that benifits others, I do freely. I don't put a price on it. One reason I like Freecycle so much. The return energy is always well in balance.

Very significant ... At this point I will inject something from my favorite ghost, Schopenhauer:

The old genuine Cynics, Antisthenes, Diogenes, Crates, and their disciples, renounced every possession, all conveniences and pleasures, once and for all, in order to escape forever the troubles and cares, the dependence and pains, that are bound up with them, and for which they are no compensation. The genuine Cynics put up with what they could get for virtually nothing. They begged occasionally, but they did not work. Independence in the widest sense was their goal. They spent their lives resting, walking about, talking with everyone, and in scoffing, laughing, and joking. Their characteristics were heedlessness and great cheerfulness. Since they had no aims of their own, no purposes and intentions to pursue, enjoying complete leisure, they became councilors of others. (Schopenhauer)

Sometimes, back in my hometown, when I would be extremely troubled and just wandering about in deep psychological pain, it would be a homeless man resting on a bench who would share a drink and listen to my troubles ... consoling me like a modern-day Cynic.

Quote from: xog
If you want credibility, don't scam, get an education (buy into the brainwashing) and career (become a work slave), wear over priced clothes (be focused on and value surface appearance), buy a house (don't trust the universe will provide), believe in a supreme other (surrender authority over your inner self) and vote for the ruling party (watch everyone else get locked up).

Quote from: Drift
I've done the education and working thing and I've dropped out for good.

This morning I went to see the doctor to renew my sick note for Incapacity Benefit (IB). I predicted it would be tough and I wasn't wrong. When I told him I couldn't face going back to work - ever, he became sceptical. "You agree that people feel better when they're in work than when they're not," he said. When I showed doubt he actually said, "I want you to agree with me!" I persisted, telling him that I had not felt better in work. After a further exchange I said that, on balance, I would rather be homeless. "If you would rather be homeless than in work there must be something wrong," he said. Only when I agreed to go to the psychiatric service for counselling did he give me a sick note. On the way out I heard him go, "Tsh!"

Either he thinks I'm scamming it or mentally ill.

I think in further meetings with counsellors or Jobcentre interviewers I'll use stronger language, for example, that I find work intolerable to the point that the thought of having to get a job makes me suicidal (which is true).

Even if I am ultimately refused IB I will never have a job again, whatever the cost.

Quote from: 1984
"You agree that people feel better when they're in work than when they're not"   --

What? did he really say that? He must be a true believer then. I guess this guy has a horrible time when he's on vacation, having sex, dancing, playing with his kids or socializing.

I think the "I'd rather be homeless than hold a job" will open you many doors, I wouldn't push it, these people don't want to hear they are wrong.
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

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Re: Supporting Nat's Bold Stand
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2014, 11:25:12 pm »


I made certain sentences BOLD because I find them crucial.

Quote from: xog
Mental illness is a relative label, relative to the perspective of the labeler and the social norms it's happening in. He may well think you are scamming AND mentally ill. That perspective secures his position as safe and sane in his own eyes--it's relative. For someone like that, eliminating you would solve all his conundrums around that. You doing suicide would only be you doing what he wants, like going to work for him. His tsk is him looking down on you. There is no way to get someone like him to not look down on you at this point, so there is no good reason to feel bad about it or to go get a job to have him like you. What makes people like him feel even better is if they can get you to feel bad about yourself. That is where the suicide impulse often comes from, feeling bad about oneself. I think it's better to feel bad at them, even mad, than bad about oneself. So long as we harm no other, we all have equal rights to live.

Personally, I don't care if anyone likes me, except my wife. And then only because we share a life together and I don't want to live with someone who doesn't like me, not because I generally need or want to be liked.

The social norm is to work, to want to work, to fit in. Being not able to work because of some physical limit is physical disability. Being not able to work because of some psychological limit is mental disability. Either is a label that works for you if you don't want to and/or can't work. Don't let the bastards get you down.

There is an old Sufi story about some holy man who went to live in a cave because he was a little different than the rest of the people and felt they were crazy. After some amount of time he came out of the cave and realized the world was different from him, a thing of one to a few billion odds. Technically, even though he was a holy man, he was crazy, because of the numbers, not because of his perspective. Like, nut is a label that works. Don't fight it. If and when you are officially given that label, own it. The only precaution I suggest is not bringing it up in conversation. People tend to ignore anything you say or think from that point on and avoid conversation with you like you have leprosy. Consider nut part of your job description, and be content. If you don't mention it, they will never know the difference, mostly because, really, everyone is nuts, and most people life with their eyes closed. There is no real norm.

So, when the inevitable question arises in conversation--"What do you do?"--for instance, what I say is whatever I happen to be doing at home at the time--landscaping, house cleaning, etc. Many will assume that is a professional paid for thing and drop it. Some will ask if I get paid for that. I always say I do, because I am getting paid for it, just not the way they mean. As much as people skirt clear and direct honesty about everything including themselves, that is not a big stretch, or even a fib. If they ask if it pays enough, I say "I'm here talking to you, aren't I?" Or, "I'm independently financed" works. Some of them look up to me after that line, and ask for advice. It's funny. Depending on their attitude, I point them toward a high road, a quicksand infested swamp, or nothing at all.

Quote from: Broken Spirit (H)
Great thread. I really enjoyed reading it.

I was at my wits end with the ways of this world, and I had no problem confessing to the State that dealing with the clock, supervisors, co-workers, and my own frustrations had become too much for me to handle without exploding. I have to be careful with my aggression ...

By the way, it took over 2 years for me to get SSD. I got denied twice: I had held a job with the State Park Service for 10 years, and then - after leaving that job, I acquired a B.S. degree in Computer Science by the time I was 35 ...

I thought that my lack of a college education was "keeping me down" --- Going on interviews, I felt insecure about my rotting teeth. I felt awkward, like I had too many feelings all the time.

I often wonder if I am just lazy ...

One word of caution: Collecting SSI/SSD will not be a ticket to a life without frustration or loneliness. There are some things I've just given up on. I can't afford to rescue any damsels in distress. There are plenty of women with children out there struggling ... I can't turn off these feelings of loneliness, but the sad fact is we live in a world where, once one falls below a certain level (income), attracting or keeping a woman (in your life) becomes an impossibility. (at least, for me)

If one has a serious aversion to "making a living" in our society, one may also have an aversion to propagating such a society.

Also, the stigma may cause depression.

Depression doesn't just show up one fine day. Depression is an agency of the State, an agency of paranoia, an agency of power. Neurosis is the result of power on individuals.

Madness (psychosis) is a radical break from power in the form of disconnection. Militancy would learn from madness, and then move beyond it.

Loneliness and depression have to be the first things to go ...  Depressed populations are easily repressed and made docile.

I don't know about anyone else who has been diagnosed with a mental disorder and collects disability, but in this part of the United States (New Jersey), we are required to participate in these outpatient treatment centers that are really demeaning - like they want you to commit suicide or something.

Needless to say, even though I escaped wage-slavery, I sometimes feel I have only traded it for state-slavery where I become property of theirs to inspect, interrogate, see what I'm up to ... They need to know where my head is at on a regular basis. BullShit. Fight it.

I feel like I am ready to speak up for us and confront the mental health industry ... Why must we be stigmatized simply for not fitting in and marching to the drumbeat of the masses?

I have had to defy the work-ethic of parents, grandparents, and partners to get where I am today. My intelligence is never questioned, but I do sometimes wake up in the middle of the night wanting to escape from being in skin.

Whatever is "wrong" with me could be the very thing that is right. In other words, If I am "sick" then I don't want to be cured. If my problem is that I feel too deeply or think too much in order to be controlled by social norms, then I don't want to be cured.

As far as I'm concerned, my breakdowns are breakthroughs.

I am not to blame if I am not tame.  Nietzsche said modern man is the tame domesticated animal that is repulsed by his own bodily functions and represses all his instincts. I am not tame!

That makes me dangerous in the work place because I just might "keep it real" - Heaven forbid! Not in front of the customers! The boss is listening. **** him! That's right, **** the boss and his managers. I have a problem. It is comical, but is is no joke.

PS: I don't post much as I am temporarily in my mom's basement (2008) --- She thinks I am "up to no good posting on gortbusters ... that's a no-no in her house. (No Mom, Gortbusters is suspended. I'm at whywork.org!)

I should be getting a place in a month or so and be on-line before the spring comes, but I can't plan more than 10 minutes ahead.

Now ... if I can just get beyond this loneliness without succumbing to a pint of Rum!

This path is FOR MADMEN ONLY.

This path would work better if you can keep from drowning in the loneliness of being an outcast. At times, like when I was doing a lot of writing on the Internet, I felt spiritually fit.

Now that I am doing more book reading and writing in notebooks, I have to confess, my feelings are getting even more intense.

Nobody can tell us the way. And yet, Nat and xog have pointed to a solution for those of you who sincerley and genuinely can't stand for it anymore.

Put your foot down like a mule and throw off the harness!!!

It is interesting to see that, once again, I am on the move again.

Quote from: yougetajob
It's nice to see you posting here again Spirit. What's happened with G-Buster's?

Drift,

It sounds like you're having success even though it's not going smooth. I wish you all the best. As for me, I'm still in procrastination mode. I'm reasonably sure, that at the very least I can get a month or two of benefits regardless of my whole mental state/non-state, so I'm not in panic mode. And it's not like I'll be on the street if I don't. But I've previously told my mom that I'd just hit the road if I couldn't pay my way here, so I may actually follow through on that. I want a change of scenery. But I always put it off and put it off, till I'm broke, making me either stuck, or tempted to do something drastic, like live in my car at the Wal-Mart parking lot. Except now I have no car, and there's not really any place around here where I could be a bum in anonymity.

Quote from: xog
Remedy for lonliness:

Simply stated, contentment with oneself.
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

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Re: Supporting Nat's Bold Stand
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2014, 11:33:33 pm »
Quote from: Q
1984 said,
   
I think the "I'd rather be homeless than hold a job" will open you many doors...   

I agree, although we don't want to lead people down the garden path here. Many (if not most) of the doors that open have firing squads or hangmen behind them. But every so often, on rare occasions, you find a door leading to freedom. And for some of us, those doors make it all worthwhile.

xog said,
   
You doing suicide would only be you doing what he wants, like going to work for him. His tsk is him looking down on you. There is no way to get someone like him to not look down on you at this point, so there is no good reason to feel bad about it or to go get a job to have him like you.

True, and this is an important point. Once you have "degraded yourself" in the eyes of certain people, there's generally no going back. Many a person has given up and done what was "expected of them" in hopes of regaining respect from such people only to find that it never really happens. In many cases, "once marked, always marked" is the rule, so it rarely pays to trouble oneself trying to please one's critics.

Quote
I think it's better to feel bad at them, even mad, than bad about oneself. So long as we harm no other, we all have equal rights to live.

Yeah, exactly. Another way I often put this basic sentiment is to say "suicide is out of the question. They don't deserve the satisfaction."

Natural selection is a struggle, not an automatic process. Nature puts us under no obligation to simply give in to those who would "naturally select" us out of existence. Every animal fights for its life and so should we.

Mike said,
   
I often wonder if I am just lazy ...

Why wonder? Most likely, you are. I certainly am. "Laziness" is massively misunderstood, in my opinion. To me, it simply means a deep unwillingness to expend energy on tasks that are meaningless to us. I don't really see how that could be viewed as anything but sensible - in a sensible world. But we know how it's viewed in this world, don't we?


If one has a serious aversion to "making a living" in our society, one may also have an aversion to propagating such a society.

Yes, although we may have a disagreement as to the extent collecting SSI does that. For me, removing money and resources from the toxic system is a public service of a sort. Every dollar we collect is one less dollar they can spend on something destructive, which is where the bulk of it goes.

   
Also, the stigma may cause depression.

Yes. There's really no avoiding this, no matter how thoroughly one counters all of the propaganda consciously. Unfortunately (regarding this issue at least), the conscious mind is not as big a deal in our lives as we tend to think it is. The subconscious has a hell of a lot of influence, too - and it doesn't listen to reason. It goes only by the neural patterns that are hard-wired into it - and thanks to a lifetime of exposure to our culture, these can give us a great deal of trouble when it comes to beliefs, views, and life choices society says are "unacceptable" - no matter how well we've addressed it all consciously.

So yeah, depression is going to be a recurring issue for most people who get on the dole. Best know that ahead of time, accept it as a cost of freedom, and make plans to deal with it as best we can.
   
Whatever is "wrong" with me could be the very thing that is right. In other words, If I am "sick" then I don't want to be cured.

Could be, or it could be more complex. In my case, I think it's more complex. I view myself as a little bit sick and a little bit sage. Really, it shouldn't be surprising that the two could co-exist. In fact, I'd be surprised if they didn't.

   
As far as I'm concerned, my breakdowns are breakthroughs.


Sometimes mine are, and sometimes they aren't. Sometimes, a breakdown is just a breakdown. I try to avoid the danger of automatically assigning great meaning or value to my more troubled periods. In some cases, they have led to progress, but in many cases, they have just made life difficult for me and others. Again, I see this whole thing as very complex, multi-faceted, and difficult to firmly categorize.

   
PS: I don't post much as I am temporarily in my mom's basement   


Ouch. That's stigma-central. Society can't make enough jokes about such a situation. It is tripping over itself to mock you at this point. I feel for you (not "sorry," but sympathetic). It's far from out of the question that I may be in that very situation myself again (or worse) before it's over. You have my moral support on this. Keep your head high as far as your subconscious mind will allow you to. You are truly living your values now, and society will stop at nothing to ridicule that.

As one's level of basement-living or homelessness increases, one approaches the psychological cross from which they want to hang you.

   
This path is FOR MADMEN ONLY.

Harsh, but basically true. In a sense, the whole idea of anyone "scamming for SSI" amuses me. What totally "sane" person would actually do such a thing? I think that by the time you're willing to trade in everything this world values for a life in tiny subsidized apartments, trailers, basements, or shelters, with the whole society either laughing or cussing at you, you've pretty much departed from "sanity" as society sees it anyway. Is it even possible to "scam" for SSI? I'm skeptical.
   
Nobody can tell us the way. And yet, Nat and xog have pointed to a solution for those of you who sincerely and genuinely can't stand for it anymore.  Put your foot down like a mule and throw off the harness!!!


Yes, there comes a time when we have to decide, crazy or not, whether we are to be men or mice. And only we can make that decision. As I see it, you, Xog, and myself can only help describe the path as it it has unfolded for us.

YGAJ said,
   
But I always put it off and put it off, till I'm broke, making me either stuck, or tempted to do something drastic, like live in my car at the Wal-Mart parking lot.

Been there, done that. I remember being amused when I got my first bill addressed to "My Name, Food Lion Parking Lot." It was a bill I owed to a friend who owned a local shop.

   
Hey, I just got banned from Pavlina's forum. Anybody else want to pick up where I left off?
   

Nah. I did that sort of "cultural work" fairly regularly for a few years and I feel I've done my share, for the most part. It's too draining arguing with the whole world year after year. One has to do it to the extent they feel able and then move on and try to work on himself.

And now I need to think about xog's latest a bit. He raises some interesting points which I might like to discuss later.

And, as an aside, I'd like to state for the record once more that some of the best truly "philosophical" discussion I've ever seen goes on at this forum. I say this as an 8-year veteran of philosophy forums, including several I've owned and operated myself. Some of the thinking here is absolutely top-notch in terms of its honesty, depth, scope, and willingness to take on "untouchable" subjects. There are people here doing real, **** philosophical work of the most difficult and meaningful kind, and they are doing it without recognition or acknowledgment from any direction. That's why I like to give some of that when I can.

Although I risk what little "mainstream" credibility I do have by being active here and by saying this sort of thing, it's worth it to be in the presence of a group of people who are really taking their own values and convictions seriously and attempting to live by them. The world may call it madness, and while it might even be that in some senses, I would also call it integrity.

 :)

Quote from: Drift
The Department for Work and Pensions has signed me up for Income Support (IS). The only difference between IS and Incapacity Benefit (IB), that I can see, is that to claim IB you need to have done a certain amount of work in the last six months. Other than that the amount of money is identical for the first 29 weeks, and there is no requirement to sign at the Jobcentre.

The IB rules are changing from the autumn. The claimants will be divided into two groups - those who can work (according to someone with a pen) and those who can't. Those with nervous disorders will be made to see an officially sanctioned counsellor who will cure them of their illness and reprogram them to be enthusiastic about work. I'm looking forward to it.

Quote from: Broken Spirit
...we live in a world where, once one falls below a certain level (income), attracting or keeping a woman becomes an impossibility.
   

Take heart, Spirit, I can think of two young men who refuse to work, yet both of them are with long term partners. One of the lads was lucky enough to find a rich girl who buys him nice presents (such as a small recording studio and a computer).

Quote from: Broken Spirit
Whatever is "wrong" with me could be the very thing that is right. In other words, If I am "sick" then I don't want to be cured. If my problem is that I feel too deeply or think too much in order to be controlled by social norms, then I don't want to be cured.
   

A year or so ago I read a book called "The Motivated Mind" by the psychiatrist and psychologist Raj Persaud. He said that people whose emotional disorder helps them to achieve a major life goal - such as not working - are rarely cured. I take this as good news and a sign that the British Government's new back-to-work plan is doomed to failure.

Quote from: Nat
   
Many a person has given up and done what was "expected of them" in hopes of regaining respect from such people only to find that it never really happens. In many cases, "once marked, always marked" is the rule, so it rarely pays to trouble oneself trying to please one's critics.   

Very true.

Quote from: yougetajob
I want a change of scenery. But I always put it off and put it off, till I'm broke, making me either stuck, or tempted to do something drastic, like live in my car at the Wal-Mart parking lot. Except now I have no car, and there's not really any place around here where I could be a bum in anomynity.   

Putting everything off is just part of one's natural aversion to work. Motivational speakers say, "Why put it off?" I say, "Why not?" The reward for completing a task is another task and no time to enjoy and just "be". I've just realised that what I've typed is no help at all, but what I'm trying to say is that those of us who habitually put things off can't help it. I used to make promises to myself and other people (such as working harder or just cleaning the windows) and I meant it. Nevertheless, I found myself just not doing it. In the film Housekeeping, young Lucille says about her indolent sister Ruthie, "Either she'll do it or she won't." I recognised this line as one I'd said about myself and here take it to mean that Ruthie's motivation -- or lack of it -- is a mystery even to herself.

note to H-self:  Very tired : continue at Reasons Not To Work, page 6
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:46:10 pm by H »
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Re: Supporting Nat's Bold Stand
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2016, 09:50:05 pm »
Danes Rethink a Welfare State Ample to a Fault (New York Times)

Robert Nielsen, 45, made headlines last September when he was interviewed on television, admitting that he had basically been on welfare since 2001.

Mr. Nielsen said he was able-bodied but had no intention of taking a demeaning job, like working at a fast-food restaurant. He made do quite well on welfare, he said. He even owns his own co-op apartment.

Unlike Carina, who will no longer give interviews, Mr. Nielsen, called “Lazy Robert” by the news media, seems to be enjoying the attention. He says that he is greeted warmly on the street all the time. “Luckily, I am born and live in Denmark, where the government is willing to support my life,” he said.

Some Danes say the existence of people like Carina and Mr. Nielsen comes as no surprise. Lene Malmberg, who lives in Odsherred and works part time as a secretary despite a serious brain injury that has affected her short-term memory, said the Carina story was not news to her. At one point, she said, before her accident when she worked full time, her sister was receiving benefits and getting more money than she was.

“The system is wrong somehow, I agree,” she said. “I wanted to work. But she was a little bit: ‘Why work?’ ”

I think Drift (of the whywork.org forums) was just brutally honest:

Quote from: Drift
I've done the education and working thing and I've dropped out for good.

This morning I went to see the doctor to renew my sick note for Incapacity Benefit (IB). I predicted it would be tough and I wasn't wrong. When I told him I couldn't face going back to work - ever, he became sceptical. "You agree that people feel better when they're in work than when they're not," he said. When I showed doubt he actually said, "I want you to agree with me!" I persisted, telling him that I had not felt better in work. After a further exchange I said that, on balance, I would rather be homeless. "If you would rather be homeless than in work there must be something wrong," he said. Only when I agreed to go to the psychiatric service for counselling did he give me a sick note. On the way out I heard him go, "Tsh!"

Either he thinks I'm scamming it or mentally ill.

I think in further meetings with counsellors or Jobcentre interviewers I'll use stronger language, for example, that I find work intolerable to the point that the thought of having to get a job makes me suicidal (which is true).

Even if I am ultimately refused IB I will never have a job again, whatever the cost.

Such honesty is refreshing.   ;)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 08:30:42 am by H »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

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