Author Topic: This Creator  (Read 469 times)

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Icelander

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This Creator
« on: August 14, 2017, 02:14:48 am »
Let's say a conscious Creator exists.  What do you think of it? I have some strong opinions myself not that I'm sure one actually exists. However I was brought up in ugly fundy religion so I'm prone to magical thinking on this subject unfortunately. It's very hard to erase early childhood programing as we all know. Anyway I'm curious what ya'll think. This is a chance to vent for some of us.  ;) I'll give my opinion down the line.

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Nation of One

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Re: This Creator
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2017, 09:42:30 am »
First of all, you are saying, "Suppose this conscious Creator exists."

What do I think of it?

I would rather not think of it.  Man created God and the Devil in his own image.

What do I think of the men who created this idea?

I think they must have been whistling in the dark.

More on this later.
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

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Icelander

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Re: This Creator
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2017, 08:38:20 pm »
I can't help but think of it but I was brainwashed at a very tender age to believe in a frightening creator. Condemned to hell by an all loving god unless I agreed to being his slave. If you can avoid it I encourage you to it and I envy you.

But basically I would have to say that any creator has to be malevolent and likely sociopathic. Then this life would make sense.

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Re: This Creator
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2017, 12:08:42 am »
Icelander,

For Schopenhauer, the ultimate nature of reality is the Will, a blind assertive drive to live and satisfy desires.  I remember something about Schopenhauer being asked about his belief or lack of belief in a Creator at around the age of 17 - Schopenhauer at 17, that is.

He said that, if this world was created, it is more likely the work of a blind demon.

I understand that when I write things here, I write them as though they are the most natural thing in the world, and in reality, what I write would be poorly received by many in our society, even my own mother and especially my sister, who has very strong opinions and considers herself an "orthodox Catholic".

When I write here, I realize that such ideas as the Creator of the Universe may have been firmly ingrained in our heads when we were children.  We were most impressionable.  Some have said we more likely fear the Devil than "love God", and there is this idea of Abraxas who is both God and Devil.  People believe a great many things, and much blood has been shed over such things.  Since you registered here, I am guessing that you sense we would not be shocked at all were you to express confusion and dismay over the idea that some kind of intelligence would impose this existence on us and call it a gift.  Many people consider this life to be some kind of gift.  Many also exclaim, "If this is a gift, return to sender!"

Let's just say I take a great deal of liberties here.  I suppose I take it for granted that many have strong beliefs, beliefs that they base their entire lives on.  You must understand that I have long since pretty much stopped discussing such things with others.  I do not question my mother when I see her kneeling by her bed praying.

There are those who would become extremely violent if they were exposed to the thoughts in my head. 

I would hope that I have enough intelligence and respect not to express my doubts to a person who has their arms spread, palms open to the sky, standing in the forest.  Surely I would sense they are in some kind of "communion" with --- what? --- perhaps none of my business. 

I would not mock someone for holding their plate of food up to the sky before satisfying their monstrous appetite.

I merely prefer to focus my attention on that appetite which compels one to eat food rather than get caught up in speculations which are based on doctrines or catechisms.  I suspect that, if intellectual honesty and "truth" are very important to a person, they will entertain great and deep doubts concerning proclamations from preachers of all stripes.   

What compels us to eat food is this Will Schopenhauer is talking about, and it is most vividly expressed in the act of copulation or orgasm.  Schopenhauer wrote with such direct terms, such honest language.  I appreciate how he focused on how we experience reality. 

I think I understand why some people hold their arms stretched out to the sky, or why others sit in the half-lotus position, and still others bow their face into the palms of their hands while kneeling.

Life can be so very difficult to endure - and lonely, not just physically lonely, but existentially lonely, maybe through the generations this idea of an "Earth Mother" or "Great Spirit" or even "all the ancestors who were born and died before us" was something a culture passes along so that "the People" - as individual creatures - might find some kind of inner strength when they are horrified, or a way to "give thanks" when they feel especially fortunate.

What I am trying to say is that I am not totally ignorant of this idea of a Creator, and I can also see how some might suspect that supernatural forces are somehow toying with us from an unseen dimension.  I fully sympathize with the anger one must feel when told they were created by an All Wise, All Powerful Supreme Being, and that they will be punished for the defects in his Work.  It does not make sense, I agree.  Rather than becoming angry and frustrated with such inconsistencies, I prefer to try to make sense of my existence, of our existence, in some other manner.  We are not required to force something to make sense that does not.  Maybe life is totally absurd.  You know, Schopenhauer attempts to solve the riddle of existence.  Do you think, just maybe, with all due respect to Schopenhauer, we might take it a step further and accept that this riddle has no solution?   Can we harness the courage to face the possibility that our mental apparatus is simply not equipped to fathom this situation, that our brains are appendages which evolved to find food for our stomachs, but certainly not to figure out how we have come to exist or what purpose biological existence serves other than meaningless perpetuation of itself?

Maybe the reason so very many rest in "faith" is so as to protect themselves from the insanity of staring into the unknown with no real answers to the big questions.

Look, some people "believe" and even "profess" that the earth is a flat disk and that it is not spherical.  I do not have any desire to argue about such a thing.  I am not required to defend any particular position.

I do not have to trust that others are thinking honestly.  Perhaps someone adopts a certain belief to keep relations with a woman as harmonious as possible.   I have a difficult time trusting that others are thinking in a clear manner.  Maybe this causes others not to wish to discuss things with me.  It's ok.  Maybe this is why I find some satisfaction spending entire days with mathematics textbooks with solution manuals an arms length away.  At least some riddles have solutions!  It appears that the riddle of existence is not one of them.   Did Schopenhauer solve the riddle of existence?  I'm not so sure, but I sincerely appreciate his attempt.  He has left a treasure for those drawn to such honest reflection.   On the other hand, there may be Schopenhauers in every village on the planet, but they lack his literary skills or, more importantly, they lack the circumstances which enabled him to spend a lifetime contemplating upon the problem of existence itself.  There are most likely even women who share his horror at existence, and they surely must suffer when labeled Old Maids for refusing to replicate. 

Ah, but we are obligated to care for our mothers.  John Trudell said that one who turns against their mother is living in a terrible confusion.   What if a child is abused or neglected?  What becomes of such children?


There are many who go years fighting the way "the Creator" is presented to them via the religion of their parents, and then years later they find themselves using the term "the Universe" in a very similar manner - such as "the Universe" provides me this or that, etc.

I have lost interest in trying to make sense of anyone's ideology.  Myself, I am comfortable viewing our species as some kind of ape with highly developed neo-cortex.  We are, after all, primates by definition.

Any of the sages we admire were also primates. Yes, even Schopenhauer and the Buddha ... they both expressed the idea that feeling sympathetic compassion to all living creature is most appropriate for, as you say, we are all fellow-sufferers.

And yet, there are many who will mistaken a compassionate person as weak.

Then there is the Nietzschean take on things where he sees the weak will view the powerful as evil.

As you may be able to tell, I have many different ways of looking at these ideas, and I would not like to be pinned down too much since we change through various experiences.

I may agree with John Trudell that the "colonizers" "God" is not the same as the "spirit-that-moves-through-all-things", that that was some kind of alien concept.

I apologize if I do not express myself clearly, or if my words seem to contradict other things I have written.

We speak (write) here with a degree of intellectual honesty that requires patience ...

(and we are hyper-sensitive to boot) --- although I do wish I could develop a more sophisticated sense of humor, and even a sense of the ironic, whatever that means.   :-\



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When I used to indulge in becoming inebriated on a regular basis, I would speak out loud many ridiculous things, things like, "No wonder mankind has wrecked the land with plumbing and polluted the waters!  Look at how vulnerable this naked ape is in such a hostile environment that is the earth, with Her floods and storms, ice and snow, insects, poisonous reptiles, etc.   Man is frightened to death!   How can the Earth be shocked should this frightened creature blow up the entire planet? !"

So much for me and booze.  I was not welcome in any bars.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 01:37:41 am by { { } } »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Icelander

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Re: This Creator
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2017, 10:37:27 am »
There's not much you said in your reply that I don't consider and that I would disagree with.  My purpose in this thread was just to see what ideas some here might have that would differ with mine. Just a curiosity. I kind of was expecting responses like yours.

 Unfortunately this is a tiny forum with just a handful of members so huge discussions are pretty unlikely. The last forum I belonged to several years back was the Shroomery. At that time it had the most traffic of any forum on the net. I was there over 10 years with over 90,000 posts . Many epic discussions went on over the years under the  Philosophy, Sociology, and Spirituality forum. Everything changed when I first read Ernest Becker on Death Anxiety "Denial of Death".  I had to fight hard for that philosophy as a prime motivator in human action. By the time I got to Antinatalism I was a serious problem for many  posters and some of the moderators and management of that site.  Just shows the power of ideas to threaten.  I finally figured it wasn't worth it anymore. Being the bad guy gets old even though I seriously learned how to do battle and win.

 This site I was feeling was maybe a place where I'd be more among  peers. Well if that's true I seem to be part of a very tiny tribe. Well that's ok because it's a tribe that has it's eyes open to what the idea of a creator might actually mean for humanity.

Unfortunately I think Schopenhauer's idea of the will is the correct one. This was the worst news ever when I first came across his idea and it's in no way opposed to Ernest Becker's ideas.  Like you I post here because there's no one I talk to about this stuff in my world of sleepers. That's just not worth it.  I keep almost all my ideas to myself in my life in the material world. Like my favorite one which is that I hope daily that our actions might just cause our extinction. That doesn't make me Mr. popular. What has surprised me is I'm finding more and more folk on the internet who do feel pretty much just like I do. As life gets  more insane there will be more of us.

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Re: This Creator
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 12:10:45 pm »
Quote from: Icelander
Unfortunately this is a tiny forum with just a handful of members so huge discussions are pretty unlikely. The last forum I belonged to several years back was the Shroomery. At that time it had the most traffic of any forum on the net. I was there over 10 years with over 90,000 posts.

I do not agree that it is unfortunate that this is a tiny forum.  Less is more, as far as I'm concerned.  Whenever I browse TLO, there is just too much.  I lose interest quickly.  I am no longer interested in huge philosophical discussions or competitive arguments.  I would rather look at some high school math problems than debate about Schopenhauer's Transcendental Idealism.  I don't like bickering.

Now, returning to your perception of this Creator you were schooled about at a young age, do you suppose that our (recent) ancestors had to love what they feared in order to survive?

Earlier you wrote something about how you felt as a child which sounds as though you had grabbed the bull by the horns but become terrified.

Quote from: Icelander
I can't help but think of it but I was brainwashed at a very tender age to believe in a frightening creator. Condemned to hell by an all loving god unless I agreed to being his slave. If you can avoid it I encourage you to it and I envy you.

Jesus is a lie.  The way this thing works is that they don't want us to think.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 01:22:52 pm by { { } } »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~