Author Topic: Nihilism  (Read 4863 times)

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raul

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2018, 09:55:48 am »
Hentrich,

Thank you for the link. I know nothing about these men of renown in philosophy. You and Holden mention Hegel and other authors and philosophers. Will I ever read them? No, honestly I will not. I wish I could have started thirty years ago but now I have no enthusiasm for reading and exploring anymore. Life has dried me. Two weeks ago I had to talk to a doctor for some prescription of pills. I have strong headaches, memory loss, dizziness, and much anxiety. He prescribed fluoxetine,(Prozac), Vitamin B1, sulbutiamin, Vitamin Complex B1,B6,B12, acid folic. Besides I take pills for prosthate problems. So in order to "function" I have to take these pills. I have to take them to endure this so-called life. But life is a hard pill to swallow.

Once again, take care.



 

Nation of One

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2018, 01:07:34 pm »
This guy, Jack Ernest, who wrote Remarks On Existential Nihilism: Labelling, Narcissism and Existential Maturity is definitely not a man of renown in philosophy.   He uses basic everyday language and repeats himself often.   

He writes in a nontechnical manner.  I just thought he had similar views as your own.

I understand if you have lost the lust for words and for reading in general.

strong headaches, memory loss, dizziness, and much anxiety?

It sound like some kind of nightmare.   I hope you find some moments of relief.

In the meantime, I may download the Kindle App to my computer so that, when I read something in this book which reminded me of some things you or Holden have told me, I can post here.  My translation into Spanish might be worse than just the straight English, so I would post both.

From the way the author spells labelling instead of labeling, I surmise that he is from the other side of the pond, since "American English" spells it with one L, and the real English use two Ls.

What Jack Ernest says is rather simple and direct.  He says that being known by others in society can cause us psychological damage, and that people make many important decisions, such as marriage, being involved in relationships, having a job, based upon fear of how they might be perceived were that to reject these roles.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 11:34:09 pm by Kaspar »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

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Nation of One

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2018, 02:51:07 pm »
Raul, I understand that reading entire books may aggravate the headaches, but for the anxiety, witnessing someone else articulate views you hold which are "labeled negatively" by the herd, can often alleviate some of the anxiety you feel.  It is liberating to validate your forbidden thoughts.

Quote from: Jack Ernest
Exposure to the herd is a psychological assault upon your identity. This is part of how you are manipulated into instinctively thinking about being in a relationship.


The more we expose ourselves to the herd, the more we are compelled to adopt the herds ideology. Exposure manipulates your decision process. Why does everyone think of being in a relationship? They do in part because of this exposure to the herd. Be it education or work, when we embroil ourselves with other people, we seek to be labelled positively by them and to do this we need to be in a relationship. Thus to mature one must overcome this persuasion.

There is a link between being sociable and wanting to be in a relationship. Socialization enforces a relationship upon you.  When using an anonymous alias on an internet forum we fear our real identity being discovered. Now one must apply that fear to the real world of interaction. When we interact with people, we at all times fear their interpretation of us. We thus try to be endorsed by them and they by us. They control our behaviour and we in turn control theirs. When they approve of us we feel good, but when they dismiss us we feel bad. It stands to reason that if one truly wishes to be free, they would be advised to live alone and avoid everyone. In living in seclusion, they cannot be interpreted and hence controlled. Furthermore, they don’t rely on another’s approval to be of esteem.

Don't worry about not wanting to read the book.  It is not particularly well written, but I appreciate some of the statements about society that the author makes.

Jack R Ernest escribió:

La exposición a la manada es un asalto psicológico a su identidad. Esto es parte de cómo te manipulan para que pienses instintivamente sobre estar en una relación.


Cuanto más nos exponemos a la manada, más nos vemos obligados a adoptar la ideología de los rebaños. La exposición manipula su proceso de decisión. ¿Por qué todos piensan en una relación? Lo hacen en parte debido a esta exposición a la manada. Ya sea educación o trabajo, cuando nos relacionamos con otras personas, buscamos que los etiquetemos positivamente y para hacerlo debemos estar en una relación. Por lo tanto, para madurar uno debe superar esta persuasión.

Existe un vínculo entre ser sociable y querer tener una relación. La socialización impone una relación sobre usted. Cuando utilizamos un alias anónimo en un foro de Internet, tememos que se descubra nuestra verdadera identidad. Ahora uno debe aplicar ese miedo al mundo real de la interacción. Cuando interactuamos con personas, en todo momento tememos su interpretación de nosotros. Tratamos de ser respaldados por ellos y ellos por nosotros. Ellos controlan nuestro comportamiento y nosotros a su vez controlamos el suyo. Cuando nos aprueban, nos sentimos bien, pero cuando nos despiden, nos sentimos mal. Es lógico que si uno realmente desea ser libre, se le aconsejaría vivir solo y evitar a todos. Al vivir en reclusión, no pueden ser interpretados y, por lo tanto, controlados. Además, no confían en la aprobación de otra persona para ser estimada.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 02:55:27 pm by Kaspar »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2018, 01:51:38 am »
Herr Hauser,

What exactly do you mean by the following:
Quote
The author would benefit from a reading of Schopenhauer's works since the image we make in the minds of others cannot really harm us.

La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
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Holden

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2018, 02:31:32 am »
Senor Raul,

Its so good to  hear  from you again. Please  take  care of your  health.And please do try to write   here from time to time.By the way, have you visited Nueva Germania in Paraguay?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nueva_Germania

La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Holden

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2018, 04:43:20 am »
Senor Raul,

If you wish to talk about any philosopher,I'd love to do it with you.You mentioned Hegel, would be you interested in discussing why Schopenhauer was so scornful towards him?

Keep well.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Holden

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2018, 05:18:20 am »
Time,space and "Will".There is not  escaping these three, is there? Kant was close  but not quite there .It was left to Schopenhauer to call out the  "thing  in itself" for us.When I study maths sometimes   my mind by itself goes to  sad memories,painful ones.  Sometimes the  memories are   so painful that I need to stop doing math & calm down  first.  Also, sometimes the questions are so complex that my brain literally  feels like  its blunt & not sharp enough to penetrate it.

Generally( by generally I mean about 90 to 90% cases),if I  try to solve a sum a couple of times I "get"it. But those 5% cases  bring me to sorrow . It is not  always because I am unable to penetrate.It is sometimes because the explanation  is not proper.

A question for you: if I am taking account of my feelings(both good and bad),the sensations that arise in  my  chest  from time to time & also the  flood of emotions that I invariably experience while studying mathematics,would you then say that this is how math could be done, phenomenologically (Husserlian - Transcendental Phenomenology).


One more thing:sometimes I am busy doing something,it could be studying math and all of a sudden I am forced to leave it-thing in itself presents itself  to me in the flesh.



La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Holden

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La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
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Nation of One

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2018, 08:54:45 am »
Herr Hauser,

What exactly do you mean by the following:
Quote
The author would benefit from a reading of Schopenhauer's works since the image we make in the minds of others cannot really harm us.

Did you read any of the said author's book (Remarks on Existential Nihilism)?

You would find that he places much importance on how society conditions us to take seriously the opinions others have of us, not only of strangers, but the significant people in our lives, that is, parents, siblings, other relatives, friends, people who "know" us.

Schopenhauer warned that those who manage society make use of this fear we have of public opinion, as a means of control and coercion.  Advertizers use this also by implying that certain products are so necessary to own that without them we become seen as delinquents.  When one owns only a flip phone as opposed to a smart phone, there is a tendency for many people to feel a sense of shame.  This is also the case with not being in any romantic relationship or not being employed.  One might experience a certain shame caused by the pressure of public opinion. 

In the author's defense, as I continue reading, I begin to surmise that he comes to similar conclusions as Schopenhauer, although he certainly is nowhere near as articulate as Schopenhauer.  Where Schopenhauer tried not to repeat himself, this author does so to the point of annoyance.  I think that what the author calls "maturity" is when we come to the conclusion that what others think of us (labeling) belongs to their representation, and does not have the power to actually define us.

Let us then become mature and not give a shiit about how others perceive us.
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Nation of One

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2018, 09:21:31 am »
Quote from: Holden
A question for you: if I am taking account of my feelings(both good and bad),the sensations that arise in  my  chest  from time to time & also the  flood of emotions that I invariably experience while studying mathematics,would you then say that this is how math could be done, phenomenologically (Husserlian - Transcendental Phenomenology).


One more thing:sometimes I am busy doing something,it could be studying math and all of a sudden I am forced to leave it-thing in itself presents itself  to me in the flesh.

Since throughout the day I am invariably always either working on a math problem, trying to implement a mathematical idea into a computer program, or satisfying basic primitive needs (which demand constant attention, as any living creature can attest), I frequently find emotions rising up to the surface out of nowhere, echoes coming from past experiences, images of those who may have abused me, or shame about some of my own behavior - guilt, fear, anxiety.  These feelings are the realm of experience itself.

I firmly believe that whenever we seriously put our minds to studying anything that life will get in the way.  Those who write texts rarely mention this.  I suppose the material must be presented in as terse a manner as possible.

Your question about how math could be done phenomenologically may be a kind of seed question.  I suppose it would  be a rather complicated project of individualized description of internal (subjective) states, quite impossible to communicate, but not impossible to think about.

I'm afraid that our deepest reflections are not communicable, and we will have to give up on any hopes of describing in any meaningful way the flood of anxieties taking place beneath the surface of the brain's command center.

Often all one can do is take deep breaths to try to get a grip on a given situation and interpret what our own internal guidance system is shouting at us.  We are hardwired to be afraid and anxious, maybe as a consequence of having evolved from fish, who knows.   Part of our brain sees no apparent need to learn to understand the abstract ideas of mathematics, and perhaps this "beast within," the creaturely presence, this Thing-in-Itself, our own animal body as Thingly Presence, is trying to demand that the Intellect return to its subservient role, deferring to the authority of the Body, the stomache, that is, primary primitive needs.

Maybe studying math is quite unnatural, further alienating our consciousness from the evolutionary project of biological survival. 

In moments such as these, the Will asserts its Natural Authority, literally shutting down any of our "higher interests".

It is unfortunate that more people do not explore these interesting obstacles.

Thanks for digging around into deeper territory, bringing into the light the darker primal forces at play.  We can't just assume the life of the mind can go about its plans.  Life always gets in the way.   This is hardly mentioned.  In other words, in the mathematics textbooks, there is no attempt to convey the actual human experience.   

I wish I could articulate these kinds of things in my written solutions to exercises, but the space is precious on the paper, and I want to keep things organized for future reference.

Holden, we are a condemned species.  We have language but language is not sufficient to communicate raw experience.
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Nation of One

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why new topics? to organize the chaos
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2018, 09:23:41 am »
Phenomenology of Illness looks interesting, for sure.  Maybe it belongs in a new topic of its own.
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2018, 01:06:43 pm »
I have not read it yet.I intend to.With respect to both you and Herr Schopenhauer ,I think that  while it is true that "the image we make in the minds of others cannot really harm us",I have observed that the image formation is only the first part of the whole of the escalation process.

Let me clarify what I mean-(a factual example) it is plain to me that I make the wrong kind of image in the minds of most of my colleagues in the workplace.Now if the wrong kind of image continues to REMAIN an image -no problem and, Bob's your uncle.But it DOES NOT.Under the right circumstances,those buggers ACT on the basis of that image.And under really favourable circumstances (for them),there is no doubt that what BEGINS as a mere image ENDS in brutal violence.
Just my experience.

PS:Here I am not counting those (like adverisers) who don't know us personally.Only the ones who do.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 01:12:47 pm by Holden »
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raul

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2018, 09:38:46 pm »
Hentrich,

Thank you for your comments. I also thank Holden for his words. Thank you for the translation into Spanish. I admire both your and Holden´s commitment to philosophy, literature and mathematics. Most turn a blind eye to these subjects. They are too difficult, meaning it makes one questions the world we are in. Too ugly truths. Who would want to know if this planet is a laboratory, a farm, a prison or a genetic and biological facility? No, thinking is dangerous.

In this world where we are only "worth" for the money one makes, the career once follows or the job or position in a multinational, or the wife you are tied to, certainly your writings will be seen as deeply disturbing. Yes, disturbing indeed. Why do people need to mess with Diogenes, Leopardi, Schopeanhauer, Cioran, Caraco, and others if you only are a consumer? Why read these cursed thinkers and authors? We are no longer citizens, only consumers. You consume, so therefore you exist. You have no money and you are punished.

Yes, as you say, we are a condemned species. We think we are the jewel of the creation and we are only puppets programmed to be slaves. A cat is more free than a human being. This humanity is a dangerous experiment.


Thank you again and try to get some rest.


raul

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Re: Nihilism
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2018, 06:44:38 am »
Holden,

Thank you for your words. No, I have never been to Nueva Germania. I read a little about the strange experiment with Nietzche´s brother in law. An Aryan community in this devil forsaken country, well, I suppose at that time Paraguay was the ideal place because of the devastation caused by the Paraguayan War. I only went to the city of San Bernardino, 55 kms from here. A city founded by German immigrants. Most go there in the summer. But unfortunately the Ypacarai Lake is polluted because of the toxic waste in its waters. Yet the city is worth visiting.

I mentioned Hegel because you and Hentrich wrote about him.

About the scientists teaching the gorilla it will die someday. I supppose the priests, pastors, preachers, reverends all teach us that we will die someday and go to a better place. God or the gods command that we die. They call it the cycle of life. It is an arbitrary cycle imposed on the human beings as you well know. But after all we are just a sadistic experiment here. As they say in American English, we have no say over these matters of life and death.

The Earth is a slave market designed for the human corpses. We kill and we are killed at the same time. As we are all homo sapiens, we are all brothers and sisters. But we do not behave in a brotherly manner. We maim,torture, hurt and kill our own children, so to speak. We are experts in the degradation of the human spirit and body every single second. Above all since there is an abundance of human bodies, the less value we have. It is called the new economy on a global scale. Human beings are expendable. Just a resource.

Love only a word to justify the sacrifice or the genocidal instinct deeply inserted in our genes.

Once again,take care on the subway.

Holden

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To Herr Hauer and Senor Raul
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2018, 07:49:02 am »
We are  strange creatures. I feel ill at ease most of the time.Suffocation is the  key word. I feel nauseous too .Sartre was wrong. But the feeling of nausea is true.Senor Raul, I can see there  you mind is  filled up with some very dark thoughts -they only reflect the reality.
Most have mush inside of their heads.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.