Author Topic: No Salvation  (Read 302 times)

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Haywire Baboonery

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No Salvation
« on: December 12, 2017, 07:49:34 pm »
While reading parts of I Am Not Reading Philosophy: Beckett and Schopenhauer, I realized that I agree with Beckett about there being no salvation and "no way out."  Every now and then, out of nowhere,  I suddenly lose interest in what I am studying.  I could wake up enthusiastic about what I am studying, but then, at some point during the day, there is no denying the emptiness I feel.   During such moments all I can do is wait and see if the interest might renew itself.  I stubbornly persist. 

Beckett may be said to accept the basic terms of Schopenhauer’s description of the phenomenal world as a prison-house of being, a cycle of perpetual torture; he simply intensifies the philosopher’s pessimism by insisting that there is no possible salvation or “way out.”

I am for intensifying Schopenhauer's pessimism by insisting that there is no possible salvation.


« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 07:52:10 pm by Non Serviam »
He [Arthur Schopenhauer] has been the most radical of all troublemakers. He was defiant. ~ (Marcuse?)

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Holden

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2017, 11:20:21 pm »
One gets to choose the type of damnation,right?
I am just a sad little green  tortoise  who crawls and crawls..

Haywire Baboonery

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2017, 12:45:22 am »
What I mean is, well, Schopenhauer, like the Buddha and others who have attempted to solve the riddle of existence, those who claim to have found some kind of "eightfold path" toward a kind of "salvation", apparently was confident that denial-of-the-will was possible, and that this, for him, represented "salvation."

And yet, when animals are in the process of dying, they quite naturally lose their appetites or simply are unable to eat or deficate.  And, as has been brought up here recently, when people become severley and consistently depressed, heartbroken, and deeply sad for long periods of time, they may lose their appetites.

I remember when in a psychiatric ward a few times, when under observation to see if I was "suicidal", they would witness my appetite.  When institutionalized, I live to eat. I become obsessed with food and when the next feeding will be.   I was obviously not suicidal, and the nurses would smile at me approvingly witnessing me eat seconds and somtimes even thirds.

The thing is, when an animal is on the verge of dying and it ceases to want to eat or simply becomes unable to eat, while this may seem to be a denial of the will to live, it could also just be part of the life process.  In other words, death is part of the life cycle, so even when an individual organism loses the desire to live, it simply ceases to be. 

Life contains death.  Death is part of biological life.

Those of us who do not reproduce fade out of the gene pool, and we may be glad that we have not contributed to bring another creature into exitence who will need to eat food.

When I refer to myself as a monster, I do not mean that I find myself particularly evil or wicked.  No, not at all.   I am simply pointing out that I find this condition of being a living creature to be a monstrosity, in that, even when we are very healthy, we have a stench in our bowels.  We consist of slime and veins pumping with blood, with nerves capable of transmitting extreme pain to our senses.  In other words, it is not that I see myself as a monster, per se, but I view my/our predicament as a monstrosity.  It is difficult, no matter how much we may despise those who we may percieve as arrogant, stupid, or superficial, not to have sympathy and compassion for what they will ultimately experience during their existence.

There's no doubt about the fact that we will get through this.  We have no choice.

I do not think we can choose our type of damnation, either.

It was said by the Buddha that desire causes suffering and he supposedly prescribed a way of life which might enable one to transcend suffering.   Schopenhauer was also very concerned with suffering, not just his own, but the suffering all living creatures must endure in having been born.

Both the Buddha and Schopenhauer felt they had found a way out.

With all due respect to both, I wonder if this way out was simply "peace of mind" or tranquility. 

Was it purely "psychological salvation" or even merely "words" ?

I would like to be able to intensify Schopenhauer's pessimism by considering that it is highly probable that there may be no way out of this.

If one stops eating food, this does not conquer the will to live.  It is just an individual preferring not to eat or live.    Let is consider the scribe in the story who kept saying that he would prefer not to. 

In the end, he does stop eating - while locked up in the jail.  His "crime" was loitering about, not caring for himself, burdening others with his presence.

It's only a story, but there are probably countless who lose the ability to even try to pretend to know how to go about "surviving."   Consider those who live day to day not knowing if they even want to be alive.

I remember reading Schopenhauer where he points out that this is exactly what makes gives existence its RIDICULOUS character, the fact that one can consciously NOT WANT TO CONTINUE TO EXIST, and yet to persist regardless.

Would it be considered "defeatist" to deny the possibility of any kind of cure for our predicament?

It is possible that death is not the end of this?

The Buddha more than hinted that there is no self.  Each living animal, including us, is a graveyard of all we have eaten to sustain our health and well-being.  Meanwhile, the cold wind blows and our bones do whatever they can to keep warm.  Fires rage, and those animals, including human animals, do all they can to escape from the flames.  Floods threaten to drown the creatures, and how terrifying is the thought of being left vulnerable in deep waters to drown or die of hypothermia.

In being born we are condemned to literally fighting for our lives.

Schopenhauer repeatedly reminds us that that which is most real in us is not effected by the physical death of the individual organism we identify as our so-called "self".  And yet ... what is it that eats food while another is going hungry?   

I can't wrap up this post with any final statement.   As usual, all I have done is ask some questions, questions which I am not sure can even be answered.

My intention is not to dispute Schopenhauer's idea of the Denial-of-the-Will or minimize the Eightfold Path taught by the Buddha.  I think I am just intrigued by the option of intensifying our pessimism by resigning ourselves to depressive realism and the impossibility of knowing all that much about the nature of our predicament.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 09:48:49 pm by Miserable Mike »
He [Arthur Schopenhauer] has been the most radical of all troublemakers. He was defiant. ~ (Marcuse?)

"Learning math is never a waste of time." ~ Ivan Savov

"Programming is understanding."  ~ Kristen Nygaard

raul

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2017, 05:26:38 am »
Hentrich,
"I remember when in a psychiatric ward a few times, when under observation to see if I was "suicidal", they would witness my appetite.  When institutionalized, I live to eat. I become obsessed with food and when the next feeding will be."

Are we not all institionalized,specially those who dwell in the cities? When I see sometimes on TV these gastronomical experts or chefs talking about gourmets, and so on., many people live to eat and as you say become obsessed with food. Of course this only goes for those who can afford these gourmets. But it shows that most are suicidal, it is just that we do not want to acknowlege it.

"Life contains death.  Death is part of bilogical life."
This is a great truth. That is the reason we have religions with their rites, therapies, self-help books,motivation speakers,drugs, alcohol, these modern spectacles, like soccer here and the Super Bowl in the US., I have not idea what is the main sport in India,etc.etc.  But again we are afraid of death.

"Those of us who do not reproduce fade out of the gene pool, and we may be glad that we have not contributed to bring another creature into exitence who will need to eat food."

One thing that really saddens me is that most consider themselves "holier than me" because they have a "stable" family, "stable jobs", and children. They think that they have accomplished "salvation", that is., their offsprings will carry their supposedly wonderful genetic marks and possibly their wealth and las names,if any. It cleary does not matter if their descendants face diseases, financial insecurity,misery,anguish, pain,etc.

Yes, we are monsters. A female monster can **** and hours later get drilled in the hole by a male erect member. That is called "making love". Well, we  human beings are very sorry creatures.

"It is difficult, no matter how much we may despise those who we may percieve as arrogant, stupid, or superficial, not to have sympathy and compassion for what they will ultimately experience during their existence."

Arrogance, stupidity and superficiality are part of our human nature. We know that like us, our fellow human beings will face death and become a banquet for worms but we do not feel compassion. I hurt many peoples feelings knowing that death awaits us but I cannot avoid hurting. All this is ridiculous.

"The Buddha more than hinted that there is no self."
If there is no self, what are we?
 
"I do not think we can choose our type of damnation, either."
If we did not choose to be born, we do not choose our damnation.

Stay safe,drive safely and take a siesta.

 

Haywire Baboonery

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 11:20:08 pm »
Quote from: Raul
If there is no self, what are we?

I don't know.  We are processes that we experience as states.  Are we the one with a head cold or a toothache, or are we the one sleeping peacefully wrapped in a blanket?

I have checked out one of the philosopher's I heard about from reading Ligotti's Conspiracy Against the Human race, a Thomas Metzinger.  I admit, though, that I have not yet read "Being No One."

Whatever I am, it has lost patience with many areas it once found interesting.

I prefer to grapple with some math, trying to understand a little at a time.

As you have said, there are so many books and so many thinkers.  If we want to focus on anything in particular, it seems as though we will have to ignore a great deal.

Is there a self other than our phenomenal body?

"I" do not exist, I suppose.

I think it is a far more interesting statement to say "I do not exist" than even to say "God does not exist."

Well, we can't seem to get away from ourselves.  This "I" is everywhere.  Even when we are sleeping, it is there, especially if we are in any kind of pain or discomfort.

When the freezing cold wind is blowing, and "I" want to get warmed up, I suppose that this body is my SELF.

I may not believe in a soul or a spirit, but there is no denying this animal body that extends into space, this body that experiences, this brain that has a memory of past expereinces; and yet, when this body stops breathing, it will be as though "this I" never existed.
He [Arthur Schopenhauer] has been the most radical of all troublemakers. He was defiant. ~ (Marcuse?)

"Learning math is never a waste of time." ~ Ivan Savov

"Programming is understanding."  ~ Kristen Nygaard

raul

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2017, 05:24:06 am »
Hentrich,
I once read about Mark David Chapman, the killer of John Lennon in 1980. I found out that Chapman was called once "Nemo", the same title of Verne´s book. I found out that Nemo comes from Latin and it means nobody.

So we human beings are nemos. We are "being no one". The child I was in 1975 is not the same I am in 2017, although I retain my memory of the things that happened. So if I ever commit a robbery I would like to say to the judge "Your Honor, It was not me who stole this money, you see, "I do not exist., Please set me free." Of course the judge will not take me seriously although here there are judicial cases where a defendant killed a burglar in a state of agitation. He was not himself. He did not exist.

Many years ago I read that one of the Paraguayan indigenous tribes drank the blood of their enemies, specially the brave ones. They wanted to absorb the essence of the brave warriors. They sought some kind of spiritual transformation. It reminds of the Mass in Latin where the priests says, Hic est corpus meum; hic est enim calix sanguinem meam. It is the  ritual of the consumption of a God. In these so called modern times we also want to trascend this world. If there is no I, this transformation is illusion. Only the body is real, as you say.

Stay well, take a siesta and the vitamins.

Haywire Baboonery

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2019, 08:28:39 pm »
Is it possible that embracing the idea of NO SALVATION [slave nation?] might provide a loop-hole or sky-hook?

The experience of "living as being as CREATURE" is one of continual DISSATISFACTION, anxiety, distress, with brief intervals of reprieve and renewal.   As Holden has stated elsewhere, once we acknowledge the actual horror and terror of sentient being, of FEELING ORGANISMS which eat and defecate, not to mention starve, drown, burn, get eaten alive, die of dehydration or hypothermia, etc.

Even for present time humans dependent upon electricity, plumbing/sewage etc, not to mention fossil fuels and nuclear energy, who are quite often insulated from the nastiest elements of physical existence, boredom and the general pointlessness and redundancy of "remaining alive" [NOT DYING] will make dissatisfaction and discomfort the very ESSENCE and nature of these particles fancying themselves individual entities with personality traits formed by genetic material as well as lived experience.   It is all rather remarkable, in fact, even if it is horrific - and even if being alive means constant anxiety and certain stress, weariness, tiredness, overwhelmedness.

An idea Holden mentioned had to do with accepting certain "brute facts" about the nature of what we have been thrown into, and to live out the remainder of our days making observations [of our own observations], and somehow observing our own lived experience as complete and total dissatisfaction incarnate will merely confirm our hypothesis about the entire "creation" depending upon the continual dissatisfaction of the creatures.

Seeing our predicament as clearly as possible, we may find that ceasing to seek salvation from our state turns out to be a possible hack into liberation from all the distressful and often torturous feelings we experience as a consequence of our being living organisms who must eat to live, but know not why they live nor whence they came.  From time to time, segments of various populations of certain species lose the will to live altogether from distressful physical ailments, illness, stress, heartache, or just "philosophical angst, depression, disgust, or even panic-inducing horror.

When we give up hope of attaining Nirvana and face squarely the possibility that there is no way out of this nerve net of skin, excrement, bones and blood, then we might begin to analyze our own feelings and perceptions to try to understand what makes us tick, what CONTROLS-OUR-WILL.  Is it possible to "get a grip on this" ?

Maybe the idea of salvation is not something possible in a world such as the one we have evolved in, and that the only reason the idea of salvation exists in the first place is because of of the weariness of human populations everywhere in any time and place they have ever existed.   Well, maybe not in all cultures, but in many. 

So, I want to experiment a little with this idea of Holden's - to just try to experience our own lives as something to be observed, from an almost detached reference point.  That is, we might observe our own bodies as blobs of tubes, and also to wrap our "minds" around the processes which filter sensory perceptions into "the world we stand in, the world our heads are in" ... it might not be such a bad thing to begin to think against ourselves, that is, to question our very own perceptions ...

Suppose we just accept the dis-satisfactory nature of existence, that this is hard-wired into the processes that keep organisms preserving their lives (only to go extinct).  In other words, when we see discomfort and the absence of such (called pleasure) as QUALITIES of the mechanisms of "life," we begin to grasp the brute fact that long-lasting happiness or satisfaction is not actually possible, due to the nature of how these mechanisms operate.




« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 12:16:43 am by Miserable Mike »
He [Arthur Schopenhauer] has been the most radical of all troublemakers. He was defiant. ~ (Marcuse?)

"Learning math is never a waste of time." ~ Ivan Savov

"Programming is understanding."  ~ Kristen Nygaard

Holden

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2019, 11:44:02 am »
Herr Kaspar,

Its been close to five years since I first wrote to you.You write about being an observer of one's own existence. I am an enslaved and terrified spectator at my own undoing.I am trying to fight off madness for as long as possible with pretense of logic and self awareness.I have arguments in the office until my nerves are strained to the breaking point.
I see couples on the streets.To them I must cut a strange figure.Gaunt,almost sunken cheeks,furrowed brows.I keep making rambling arguments in my mind punctuated by outbursts of temper and voids of brooding silence.

Deception and ridicule of my colleagues,ubiquitous images of death and madness have marked my spiral toward the abyss of absolute breakdown.The  bas-tards have combined to wear down my defences against despair.In this heightened nervous state ,even the slightest insult or setback could trigger apocalypse.

It has been unbearably warm for days in Calcutta. Shipwrecked with no hope of rescue, delirious ,disoriented I lay on my bed.
In my mirror ,instead of the familiar face,I see an ill-starred wretch.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 11:46:11 am by Holden »
I am just a sad little green  tortoise  who crawls and crawls..

Haywire Baboonery

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2019, 04:10:25 pm »
Shipwrecked
with no hope of rescue, delirious,
disoriented I lay on my bed.

In my mirror,
instead of the familiar face,
I see an ill-starred wretch



If that post wasn't poetic philosophy, I don't know what is.

philly

Quote from: Holden
I am trying to fight off madness for as long as possible with pretense of logic and self awareness.

From the looks of my last post in the gortbusting zone, I too am leaning strongly in the direction of madness.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 06:06:21 pm by Miserable Mike »
He [Arthur Schopenhauer] has been the most radical of all troublemakers. He was defiant. ~ (Marcuse?)

"Learning math is never a waste of time." ~ Ivan Savov

"Programming is understanding."  ~ Kristen Nygaard

raul

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2019, 09:04:56 am »
Hentrich,

Thank you for these words. Salvation is a strange word.  We are a doomed species. A plaything of the gods, if I can use that word.

I admit that as part of this sad humanity I am a second-rate human being, futile, cheap, narrow-minded, feeling no intensity in this superficial world. But after all, why thinking deeply about these deep issues if one day I will be ashes in this prison farm?

Stay well and drive safely.

Haywire Baboonery

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2019, 11:14:15 am »
Raul,

I think that one of the few benefits of thinking deeply is to help one not take things too personally.  You behold reality.  You inspect the contents of your own mind.   What do you find there?  Thoughts condeming you and your/the world: a second-rate human being, futile, cheap, narrow-minded, feeling no intensity in this superficial world

The social world may be superficial, and you may truly feel this way about your own personal nature and tendencies, but maybe you are taking this life too personally.  Then again, how else can one take "life" ?   

I also find many of my most real traits to be unflattering.  Just now, my mother requested I take her blood pressure.   Part of me would prefer not to right at this moment.   What is that part?   

Take care.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 04:48:24 pm by Miserable Mike »
He [Arthur Schopenhauer] has been the most radical of all troublemakers. He was defiant. ~ (Marcuse?)

"Learning math is never a waste of time." ~ Ivan Savov

"Programming is understanding."  ~ Kristen Nygaard

Haywire Baboonery

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2019, 02:23:12 pm »
There is a part of me that wishes there were woods close by so that I might climb a fence and discover a secret place to build a fort or some kind of debris hut ... but there are no such woods, no such opportunities for privacy.

I might like to hide in it like a teenage boy smoking cannibis flowers.

 :-\
He [Arthur Schopenhauer] has been the most radical of all troublemakers. He was defiant. ~ (Marcuse?)

"Learning math is never a waste of time." ~ Ivan Savov

"Programming is understanding."  ~ Kristen Nygaard

raul

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2019, 10:27:57 am »
Hentrich,

Thank you for your response. I hope your mother is feeling allright. As I said before I am sure you are doing the best for her. At the same time you need to take care of yourself too. 

You have said with different words that being human hurts and it hurts deeply. It is true that one should not take things too personally. We need to distract our beings and minds to endure life.

Once I read a little about a British author called Thomas De Quincey.  De Quincey began taking laudanum on a daily basis in 1813. He took eighty teaspoons of laudanum to “disengage from the hustle and bustle of modern life, “aloof from the uproar of life; as if the tumult, the fever, and the strife, were suspended.” Once he hallucinated three goddesses named the Sorrows, who condemned him “to see the things that ought not to be seen—sights that are abominable.”

The famous Marquis de Sade once forced a woman to drink his semen in a chalice, then asked her to denounce God, and later threatened to shoot her with two pistols. He masturbated with an ivory crucifix and read blasphemous poetry to her. Years ago I would have liked to do things like just to make things in life spicy but at this time in life I find that kind of amusement really sad.

Indeed most of us see and experience abominable things. Abominable things covered by layers and layers of the routine of every day life.

In these so-called modern times laudanum might not be enough to disengage from futility and deception.

Stay well.

Silenus

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Re: No Salvation
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 06:52:16 am »
I am very glad that this topic has been brought up here, as it has been something I've been thinking about recently.

Isn't it a great example of the feebleness of mankind, that we cannot seem to escape this feeling of needing to be "saved," or "redeemed?" The very idea that we even NEED TO BE shows me the undercurrent of sorrow and disappointment of this self-conscious species facing it's own nature and instincts. When we look around at others and see our own behavior, our own potential to be the animals that we really are (and so fiercely wish to deny)...

But really, what needs to be saved? What is there to redeem? And why? These are purely religious feelings. It lacks the bitter honesty of recognizing that we are exactly what we are, nothing of which is contrary to nature (for better or worse).

Technology will not do it, neither politics nor the priests or even philosophy for that matter. School and work may try it's damndest to supress these emotions and passions and replace them with rigorous models of "good, civilized behavior," but the "beast" in all of us shows face at some point.

Maybe the issue is the fact that we are trapped in these never-ending cycles of self-hatred and loathing of a purely religious type, instead of knowing and admitting the brute facts of our irritable animality and "facing the music." I can't say for sure, it is something I have been working out.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 06:55:52 am by Silenus »
"How can an animal that surrounds itself with layer upon layer of dependency call itself the present pinnacle of evolution?"