This Spiritual Rebellion of Half-Insane Nobodies

General Category => Why Bother? => Topic started by: The Indignant One on June 08, 2017, 09:38:47 am

Title: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on June 08, 2017, 09:38:47 am
Excerpts from Thoughts on the Futility of Life from the Ancient Greeks to the Present by Alan R. Pratt
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Sweetness is always tainted with bitterness ~ Petrinius Arbiter d. A.D.66 "Satyricon"

It was fear that first brought gods into the world.

~ Petrinius Arbiter d. A.D.66 "Satyricon"

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For men who are fortunate, life is short; but for those who fall into misfortune, one night is an infinite time.  ~ Lucian, Epigram  c. A.D. 170

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The Medieval World: Very Dark Ages, Indeed A.D. 500-1350

Quote from: Alan Pratt
While Christianity created a great deal of emotional stress for believers, its impact on the intellectual life of the time was disastrous.  Even the earliest Christians felt that rational analysis was unreliable in matters of faith.  Tertullian, for example, rejected reason altogether and seriously argued that the most persuasive evidence for belief was its patent absurdity.  Eventually the all-encompassing Church became the unquestioned, final authority on both ecclesiastical and secular affairs.  Some of the negative results of this development included a bloodthirsty inquisition, the tortured and unintelligible logic of the scholastic philosophers, and centuries of intellectual intolerance and stagnation. 


He [God] fashioned hell for the inquisitive.

As far as this life of mortals is concerned, which is spent and ended in a few days, what does it matter under whose government a dying man lives?


~  St. Augustine A.D. 374-430
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BOETHIUS 

(Remember Toole's Confederacy of Dunces?  This was the author of The Consolations of Philosophy, the book cherished by the main character, Ignatius Reilly)

Who hath so much happiness that he is not on some part offended with the condition of his estate?

In every adversity of fortune, to have been happy is the most unhappy kind of misfortune.

An everlasting law is made,
That all things born shall fade.

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It is a misery to be born, a pain to live, a trouble to die.

~  St. Bernard of Clairvaux 1090-1153,
    De Consideratione

Tell me, O mortal man, tell me about the putridity of the worm;
Tell me o flesh, o dust, what good is the glory of Flesh?
O man wretch, why do you take pride in putridity?
Learn what you are, what you will be; remember that you will die.
First you were sperm, then stench, then food for worms, then dust,
And thence nothing; what then, does a man have to be proud about?
As the rose pales when it feels the sun draw near, so man will vanish:
Now he is, now he has ceased to be.


~ Cambridge University Library MS Ee, Vi. 29, fol. 17  c.1200

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The Renaissance: The Rebirth of Angst   1350-1625

Quote from: Alan Pratt
Dissatisfaction with the growing wealth and unchecked corruption of the Roman Catholic church helped to disrupt and eventually break down the static medieval worldview, and the long hibernation of free inquiry slowly began to end.  For the first time in a thousand years, investigations into the nature of the world could be conducted without ecclesiastical interference and the threat of heresy. 

For the masses, then, there was no Renaissance, for, as in ages past, they were preoccupied with the same day-to-day struggle for survival that had consumed the lives of their ancestors, a struggle made more difficult, no doubt, by crumbling myths and traditions.

While I thought I have been learning to live, I have been learning to die.
~ Leonardi Da Vinci, 1452-1519, Notebooks


Condemned and doomed to die, we are all shut up in the prison of this world.
~ St. Thomas More  1478-1535, On the Vanity of this Life


It is more secure to be feared than to be loved.
~ Niccolo Machiavelli  1469-1527, from The Prince

To speak of the people is to speak of madmen, for the people is a monster full of confusion and error, and its vain beliefs are as far from truth as is Spain from India.
~  Francesco Guicciardini, The Story of Italy  1853


Will is the pimp of appetite.
~  Lope De Vega  1562-1635, Los Locos de Valencia

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Quote from: Alan Pratt
In Michel De Montaigne's [1533-1592] masterpiece of self-analysis, the collected Essays (1560-1580), one can follow the evolution of his thought from stoicism to skepticism.  The more carefully he pursued knowledge, the less he knew.  His motto "What do I know?  What does it matter?" sums up his skeptical reaction to all things.  His answer, "It may be and it may not be," suggests his dissillusionment and cynicism and testifies to his awareness that relativity is everywhere, that there are no absolutes.

We imagine ourselves superior to all creatures by virtue of our reason, he concludes, but all rational theorizing has not revealed even one universal truth. What is, we cannot know.

From Essays:

There is no animal in the world so treacherous as man.

In the midst of compassion we inwardly feel a kind of malicious delight to see others suffer.

We are no nearer heaven on top of Mount Cenis than at the bottom of the sea.

Pleasure itself is painful in its depth.


From "Apology for Raymond Sebond" in Essays II:

Of all the part of what we know is the least part of what we know not.

Nothing is so firmly believed as that which is least known.

By this variety and instability of opinions they lead us as by the hand, tacitly, to this conclusion of their inconclusiveness ... They do not openly to profess ignorance and the imbecility of human reason so as not to frighten the children: but they reveal it to us clearly enough under the guise of a muddled and inconsistent knowledge.

Now, since our condition accommodates things to itself and transforms them according to itself, we no longer know what things are in truth, for nothing comes to us except falsified and altered by our senses.  The uncertainty of our senses makes everything they produce uncertain.

Since the senses cannot decide or dispute, being themselves full of uncertainty, it must be reason that does so.  But no reason can be established without another reason: there we go retreating back to infinity.


That last one reminded me very much of Holden's "philosophical skepticism concerning the validity of the foundations of mathematics (http://whybother.freeboards.org/math-diary/re-imaging-mathematics/)," when he writes:

Quote from: Holden
We can spend our time working on mathematical proofs ,but surely, we cannot overlook the fact that the Dolciani book lays down what is intended to be secure base of absolute truth:the axioms of logic,the intuitively certain principles of mathematics, the self-evident axioms and rules.Each of these foundations is assumed without demonstration,leaving them open to challenge and doubt.This book uses deductive logic to demonstrate the truth of theorems of mathematics.Consequently,the book fails to establish the absolute validity of mathematical truth.For deductive logic can only transmit truth,not inject it,and the conclusion of a proof is no more certain than the weakest premise.

and

Quote from: Holden
The quest for certainty in mathematics leads inevitably to a vicious cycle.Any mathematical system depends on a set of assumptions,and trying to establish their certainty by proving them leads to infinite regression. There is no way of discharging the assumptions.Without proof,the assumptions remain fallible beliefs,not necessary knowledge.All that can be done is to minimise them,to get a reduced set of axioms,which have to be accepted without proof.The only alternative is to replace one set of assumptions by another.But replacement merely starts off a further circuit of the vicious cycle.

Hence, no reason can be established without another reason: there we go retreating back to infinity.

O senseless man, who cannot make a maggot and yet will make gods by the dozen!


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Hell hath no limits, nor is circumscribed.
In one selfe place, for where we are is hell,
And where hell is, must we ever be.

~  Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus

Hope is the fawning traitor of the mind, while, under color of friendship, it robs it of its chief force of resolution.
~  Sir Philip Sidney, Arcadia   1590

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Title: Re: The Dark Side
Post by: Holden on June 09, 2017, 08:00:28 am
Thank you so much Herr Hentrich!

I often ask myself -can I have anything to say,I who have no more to do in this world?And what shall I find in this dry and empty brain which is worthy the trouble of being written?
Why not? If all around me is monotonous and colourless ,is there not within me a tempest, a struggle,a tragedy?This sadness & pain  which possess me,does it not take every hour,every instant of my being?Why not try to describe for myself all the violent and unknown feelings I experience in my outcast situation?Certainly the material is plentiful,and,however shortened my life may be,there will still be sufficient in the anguish ,the terrors,the tortures,which will fill it from this hour until my last.Besides ,the only means to decrease my suffering in this anguish will be to observe it closely ,and to describe it will give me an occupation.And then what I write may not be without its use. The description of my wretched existence day by day,torment after torment,if I have strength to carry it on to the moment when it will be physically impossible for me to continue-this history necessarily unfinished,yet as complete as possible.Will not there be in this process of agonizing thought ,in this every increasing progress of pain,in this intellectual dissection of a condemned man more than one lesson for the Gort and the Breeder?
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on June 09, 2017, 09:25:53 am
Quote from: Holden
I often ask myself -can I have anything to say,I who have no more to do in this world?And what shall I find in this dry and empty brain which is worthy the trouble of being written?


“You’ll find that you’re not the first person who was ever confused and frightened and even sickened by human behavior. You’re by no means alone on that score, you’ll be excited and stimulated to know. Many men [and women] have been just as troubled morally and spiritually as you are right now. Happily, some of them kept records of their troubles. You’ll learn from them – if you want to. Just as someday, if you have something to offer, someone will learn something from you. It’s a beautiful reciprocal arrangement. And it isn’t education. It’s history. It’s poetry.” ~ JD Salinger
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: Holden on June 10, 2017, 03:54:10 am
Thanks for your feedback Herr Hentrich!
Title: a profound concentration of negativity
Post by: The Indignant One on June 11, 2017, 10:42:11 am
No problem, Holden. 

A few from William Shakespeare (if that was really his name, after all is said and done ... Was he really Christopher Marlowe?  That I will not ponder here.)

Reason thus with life:
If I do lose thee, I lose a thing
That none but fools would keep.

Measure for Measure


Thou know'st, the first time we smell the air
We bawl and cry ...
When we are born we cry that we are come
To this great stage of fools.

King Lear


A wonder men dare trust themselves with men.
Timon of Athens

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Baroque Extravagance, Incredulity, and Pessimism

1625-1725

Quote from: Alan Pratt
During this period, the prestige and authority of Christendom was diminished by continuing ferocious doctrinal war begun during the reformation.  The ghastly Thirty Years' War (1618-1648), which devastated central Europe and reduced the population of Germany by a third, was but one of the conflicts initiated between Protestants and Roman Catholics.  For many free thinkers, the debate concerning ecclesiastical authority had little relevance, as their discussion now centered on whether or not a supreme being even existed.

Like Montaigne, Descartes had to admit that our senses can indeed mislead us, and thus all empirical knowledge is suspect.  While Descartes came close to exposing the arbitrary mechanisms which tell us how to experience reality, by the 1730's David Hume would push skeptical analysis to new extremes, demonstrating how everything we assume about reality - mind, substance, and causality - is merely anthropomorphic arrogance.  And just as Descartes had feared, traditional reality - the dominant worldview - began to disintegrate.


Himself is his own dungeon.  ~ Jeremy Taylor  1613-1653, Contemplation on the State of Man


As our life is very short, so it is very miserable, and therefore it is well it is short.  ~ Jeremy Taylor, The Rule and Exercise of Holy Dying

Man's state implies a necessary curse;
When not himself, he's mad; when most himself, he's worse.

~ Francis Quarles  1592-1644, "Emblem"

Famine ends famine.   ~ Ben Jonson, Explorata  1630

For man's greatest offense
Is that he has been born.
  ~  Pedro Calderon de la Barca, Life is a Dream c. 1636

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Sir Thomas Browne  1605-1682

Lord, deliver me from myself.

The heart of man is the place the devils dwell in: I feel sometimes a hell within myself.

Many grow old before they arrive at age.


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If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides.
~  Charles Montesquieu, Personal Letters

It is a stupidity second to none, to busy oneself with the correction of the world.
~  Moliere 1622-1673 Misanthrope

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Blaise Pascal  1623-1662

Quote from: Alan Pratt
Until his leap of faith, Pascal offered insights for a philosophy of rationalized defeat.  And as an angst-ridden genius chronicling his inner turmoil, he experienced some truly black days.  Pascal's prescription is to immerse one's self in strenuous activity - while the activity itself will be meaningless, it will help one overcome meaninglessness.

Too much clarity darkens.

All men naturally hate one another; there could not be four friends in the world.

How hollow is the heart of man, and how full of excrement.

Everything is true in part and false in part.

Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would make one a madman of another order of madness.

What a chimera, then, is man!  What a novelty, what a monster, what a chaos, what a subject of contradiction, what a prodigy!  A judge of all things, feeble worm of the earth, depository of truth, sewer of uncertainty and error, the glory and shame of the universe!

What astonishes me most of all is to see that men are not astonished by their own frailty.

We shall die alone.

The natural misfortune of our mortal and feeble condition is so wretched that when we consider it closely, nothing can console us. 

It may be that there are such things as true proofs, but it is not certain.  Thus that only proves that it is not certain that everything is uncertain - to the greater glory of skepticism.


    Thus human life is nothing but a perpetual illusion; there is nothing but mutual deception and flattery.  No one talks about us in our presence as he would in our absence.  Human relations are only based on this mutual suspicion; and few friendships would survive if everyone knew what his friends said about him behind his back, even though he spoke sincerely and dispassionately.
   Man is therefore nothing but disguise, falsehood and hypocrisy, both in himself and with regard to others.  He does not want to be told the truth.  He avoids telling it to others, and all these tendencies, so remote from justice and reason, are naturally rooted in his heart.

The state of man: inconstancy, weariness, unrest.  One hour of pain is a better teacher than all the philosophers put together.

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Life is a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel.  ~  Attrib.  Jean Racine  1639-1699

Better mad with everybody than wise alone.  ~ Baltasar Gracian, Oraculo Manual  1647

The wise man always hopes for the best, but expects the worse.  ~  Oraculo Manual


The reasons for doubting are doubtful themselves; one must therefore doubt whether he ought to doubt.   What chaos!  What torment for the mind! ... Our reason is the way to wander, since, when it displays itself with the greatest subtlety, it throws us into such an abyss ... Human reason is a principle of destruction and not of edification; it is only fit to start doubts, and to turn itself all manner of ways to perpetuate a dispute.
~  Pierre Bayle, Selections from the Dictionary

Title: In the Penal Colony
Post by: Holden on June 12, 2017, 10:26:42 pm
Thanks for the post.Its a very wise book.

As a reliable compass for orientating yourself in life nothing is more useful than to accustom yourself to regarding this world as a place of atonement, a sort of penal colony. When you have done this you will order your expectations of life according to the nature of things and no longer regard the calamities, sufferings, torments and miseries of life as something irregular and not to be expected but will find them entirely in order, well knowing that each of us is here being punished for his existence and each in his own particular way. This outlook will enable us to view the so-called imperfections of the majority of men, i.e., their moral and intellectual shortcomings and the facial appearance resulting therefrom, without surprise and certainly without indignation: for we shall always bear in mind where we are and consequently regard every man first and foremost as a being who exists only as a consequence of his culpability and whose life is an expiation of the crime of being born.”
― Arthur Schopenhauer, On the Suffering of the World

https://youtu.be/kPAMwaVfZDw
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: Holden on June 13, 2017, 10:12:17 pm
https://youtu.be/HZr9FqU9E78
Title: Prayer for (not against) Cancer:Loneliness of Being Schopenhauer
Post by: Holden on June 14, 2017, 09:02:01 am
I like Inmendham very much. I am completely alone in my office.I stand alone. Completely alone in my family. They all make fun of my lifestyle.
Yes,according to them I am the bad guy. Even Inmendham has his physics. I have nothing.Not even literature. I am face to face with bare painful,agonising existence.
107 billion people have ever lived.I sure feel that no body had to go through such turmoil.Is that egotism? It is possible.
I mean,surely one of them must have suffered more than everyone else,subjectively,if not objectively, could it be that I am he?

I get these fainting spells out of sheer burden of existence.

In the video I posted earlier Inmendham says that he often thinks about people who say"Kill me","Kill me",well,I am certainly of those.
His sister died of cancer. After giving birth to a baby. I swear to God,I'd never reproduce,I do pray to whoever is up there that I get cancer or some fatal disease. I really don't want to live any longer. This existence is too messy.
Unfortunately just as prayers cannot cure cancer ,they also cannot give cancer.All I want to do is to cry all the time,you know. Senor Raul is gone. I don't know what sort of trouble he is in. He was a nice man,an honest man.
Now the only man on this entire planet who listens to my plaintive messages is Herr Hentrich & that also seems too good to be true to me.
Why cannot they open euthanasia booths?
This is certainly something to think about:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3748787/Euthanasia-tourists-rush-Belgium-free-lethal-injections-staggering-2-023-medically-killed-year.html

Maybe I can earn enough money to make that possible,but what if once I reach there,they turn me down for some reason? or my money runs out?
So many what ifs.
And what if I did go through the procedure & it turns out that Schopenhauer is right & "I" go through the whole reincarnation process again?

https://youtu.be/vWZapP8b11s
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on June 14, 2017, 10:35:20 am
Herr Holden,
No, Holden, I am not a nice person. But I thank you for your kind words. I also thank Hentrich for letting me post in this board. No matter what you do you, Hentrich and many others, you will be considered to be villains or the bad guys. You see, Holden, too deep and too much. That´s the reason you are the bad guy. Most people think that because they never went to prison, they are innocent and most think they are sane because they have never been to a psychiatric institution. I can tell you that most of us should be in jail because we want to commit the sames crimes that we condemn in others. You see in WWII sixty million people died murdered by their own governments. How long do you think it will take me to kill that amount people on that industrial scale in that short period of time?

You, Hentrich and others see that we humans are full of deception, worthless,predatory instincts, diseased,selfishness,moral decay, our savagery, vanity, self-interest, lies, hypocrisy, murderous thoughts that we repress all the time and by breeding we keep this hellish machine running.Most would always like to be popular and accepted, to have the good opinion of others because one gets pleasure and of course financial and material gain.We enjoy our submission. We want to feel superior to others but you are not into that because you have seen and still seeing too much. You, bad guy, think while others, incluiding me, we think that we think. Thinking deep causes headaches. Endless nightmare.

You say "they make fun of my lifestyle". In my view that happens because most of them envy you and they are ashamed of thinking the way you do. Yes, I am, sure they have "forbidden" thoughts like you. They won´t admit it anyway. You are a philosophical serial killer, not physical, you kill their little superficial worlds. You are like a werewolf in front of the sheep. You said you handed out antinatalist pamphlets there. That heroic act demanded energy and commitment.
Like Hentrich, you disobey the norms of society. You break their laws.You and Hentrich are beyond "reform".

What you write, you and Holden, is already finest literature. While most deluded become members of the Secret Society of Happy People started by Pamela Gail Johnson of Irving,Texas, others like me read your fine and truthful words. Stay safe. Raúl


P.S. I have been with the flu and my PC did not work.
Title: To Senor Raul:The Secret Society of Profoundly Melancholic People
Post by: Holden on June 14, 2017, 11:21:31 am

Senor Raul,
http://www.liveyourpassion.org/pamela-gail-johnson/

Nothing special in this woman.There are many such idiots in my office.Dime a dozen.
I dont speak much in the office,when I do, I speak in a low, tremulous voice—as if on the verge of tears—that would work very well if I were delivering a funeral eulogy.

When the mass media report suicide stories, they almost always provide a “reason,” which seems to bring logic to the illogic of self-termination. Since there are always things going awry in every life at every moment, the explanation industry usually tells us that the person had a disastrous marriage, or was a hopeless addict, or had just experienced a major career disaster, or was under the influence of a cult. Well,I am not married,I am not an addict,I dont give a rap about my career and am not in a cult.

Nor is suicide an ultimate manifestation of “selfishness” or “cowardice,” as the reason-mongers often argue. Suicide is not a casual behavior, for all that it may entail impulsivity, it is also a profound and momentous step for which many people don’t have the force of will.

Lack of intelligence has nothing to do with it too- intelligence does not help in these circumstances, intelligence  is almost always profoundly isolating.

Most people imagine that resolving particular problems will make them happy. If only one had more money, or love, or success, then life would feel manageable. It can be devastating to realise the falseness of such optimism..
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on June 14, 2017, 02:45:15 pm
Herr Holden of Northern India,
"There are many such idiots in my office." Yes, I know because I am one of them.Hahaha. This is a mad world. As you say "this existence is too messy". When the mass media reports suicide stories they have to provide reasons because they are not going to publish the truth. They need to keep this farce going. They are optimists no matter what horrible things humans do every single day. Suicides go against what people call "mission", purpose", "goal", "objective". 

"If only one had more money, or love, or success, then life would feel manageable. It can be devastating to realise the falseness of such optimism." Yes, that´s the naked truth. One can have tons of money, love or success but what happens when you get older and weaker as time passes and you feel yourself decrepit? Of course for the wealthy there are many options such as going to those special Ambrosia clinics in California where you pay US$ 7,000 for a treatment in young blood injected into your body. One can stop aging for some time but the end will come anyway. As you say I feel "the sheer burden of existence" and I see people as future skeletons walking, skeletons drinking and skeletons playing with their skeleton babies. A truly macabre show. Take care of yourself. Raúl

Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on June 16, 2017, 08:09:52 pm
Quote from: Raul
When the mass media reports suicide stories they have to provide reasons because they are not going to publish the truth. They need to keep this farce going.

 Suicides go against what people call "mission", purpose", "goal", "objective". 

Teen Fights Involuntary Manslaughter Charge in Boyfriend’s Suicide (http://abcnews.go.com/US/massachusetts-teen-fights-involuntary-manslaughter-charge-boyfriends-suicide/story?id=36373032)
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on June 17, 2017, 08:33:01 am
Herr Hentrich,
I read both links. What sad stories! Most people find the idea of self-murder almost impossible to understand. Most of us don´t really care about a person who might be going through a living hell. We tend to think that although life is horrible we must go on,on and on. Enjoy the punishment of life, be a happy slave (Arbeit macht frei), be a proud member of the homo sapiens sapiens and then die. But don´t you dare to finish your life on your own. No, no,no. Suffering is good, suffering makes you free.
You want out? That´s for cowards, renegades or losers as you say in the USA.
We must get used to the hardships of life. If somebody tries to speak about life not many are willing to hear and if your neighbor, acquaintance, friend or relative leaves this awful world by committing suicide, we just utter empty words, words to avoid that breath of pointlessness in life.  That´s the problem, we are hyprocrites. So, stick to this funhouse. Life is beautiful.

Your and Holden´s commitment to mathematics remind me of things I read about the famous Pythagoras, one of the Seven Sages of Greece who could remember his past lives and could also see the past lives of his students. He considered that either philosophers should be kings or that kings should be philosophers.
He also thought that numbers were at the heart of the cosmos and also saw numbers in a very different way because for him they were qualitative. Pythagoras and his followers were interested in the meaning of a number, its essence in itself. For him number is the principle, the source, and the root of all things.

Pythagoras and his Brotherhood were vegetarians. Behind the philosophical life one to become pure. He believed that by eating animal flesh, we may eat a human soul that had transmigrated. Beans were forbidden, because they caused flatulence and that could interfere with the contemplative calm the brothers desired.
All property was held in common, and the brothers’ daily routine consisted of studying mathematical diagrams that modeled the harmony in nature and the cosmos. His students would also study the heavens and learn the fundamental principles of music.
You two pursue mathematics in the same way but in different parts of the world. Stay safe.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on June 17, 2017, 11:43:44 am
Quote from: Raul
Beans were forbidden, because they caused flatulence and that could interfere with the contemplative calm the brothers desired.

Since I am usually alone (and have a perverted liking of the smell of my own farts), beans all alright by me!   :D
Title: To Herr Hentrich and Senor Raul
Post by: Holden on June 19, 2017, 08:56:58 am
Senor Raul,
Could you tell me what is the difference between salvation and suicide?Schopenhauer ofcourse says that the two are fundamentally opposite.
I mean if someone were to do away with himself -would all the pain and misery end for him?Surely ,biologically he exists no more but how about metaphysically?
I dream of ever lasting nothingness.Do you think it is difficult for a man to sleep the big sleep?I think the pain entailed in the process is certainly a deterant.

Herr Hentrich,
You must forgive me for not being able to write anything about math-I am just way too sad all the time to do anything.

Senor Raul,do a lot of people end their lives in Paraguay?To exist no more.What a beautiful  thought.No one would be able to hurt us then,would they.Please forgive for not writing sooner.

I have heard that in ancient Greece there was a philosopher who stopped breathing to end his life-you think that is possible?How many days can one go without food,before one is gone for good?What to do ,Senor Raul?There is no end in sight.Every breath is a burden.Should I just quit my job and live as a vagabond?Do you think that will bring me some relief?

I am very sad.



Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on June 19, 2017, 09:25:25 am
Herr Holden,
Thank you for your words. I am not the right person to write. I appreciate all the things you have written and still you are writing. I have felt suicidal many times and filled with sadness and bitterness too. I saw myself hanging from the roof many times, or crossing the street in front of the buses or cars whose drivers here drive recklessly. Many in the city killed themselves by crossing the streets looking for the end.   But I suppose the will to life is still strong in me and that´s the reason I still continue my existence in this world. There are days where everything tastes ashes.

You write about salvation and suicide. The world salvation reminds me of the priests and pastors who preach that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, for mankind to attain salvation in the eyes of the Father. Suicide is a forbidden word.

Reading this blog, your words and Hentrich´s are important. Here in Paraguay many end their lives but the media, I mean, TV does not report them except the radio stations and newspaper but few lines. It is very uncomfortable for most people to understand tragedy. We are filled with distraction or tranquilizers. Someone told me that our consciousness continues after death. I am not sure but it is called eternalism, a part of what they call philosophy of time. 

Yes, to exist no more is beautiful. I think about that most of the time and like any other human being I am also afraid. I am afraid of life and death at the same time. Especially when I see my father suffering from diabetes and Parkinson´s Disease. Also I see some elderly people in the streets very early in the morning collecting beer cans or plastic from the garbage in order to sell them to the recycling company and survive another day. There are people who tell me that I should try to stay healthy but I do not pay attention to them. I am tired of all this.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: Holden on June 19, 2017, 09:57:10 am
Senor Raul,
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for writing back to me.You see ,most of the anti natalist blogs are dead.Mr Karl does not write anything neither does Metamorph.Liggoti also is silent.Mr Gary still speaks but I am really worried about him as he is getting so very thin and he smokes all the time.

This philosophy is the most important thing in my life.You speak of eternalism.Do you mean we could be destined to repeat out lives continually?I am very much afarid of it.What if Schopenhauer in some manner had to take birth again?

I know that most people will just laugh at us-but I dont care.
Gary after all has devoted thousands of hours urging people to think about it.

Should I try to write stories like Lovecraft and Liggoti?I am not saying I would be a good writer like them,maybe I would just write for the likes of us&post them here?

I am terribly sad.I literally weep all the time.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on August 16, 2017, 02:57:53 pm
With what strife and pains we come into the world we know not, but 'tis commonly no easy matter to get out of it.

~ James Thompson 1700 - 1748, Philosophy


He that best understands the World, least likes it.

Nine Men in ten are suicides.

Who is rich?  He that is content.  Who is that?  Nobody.

~ Poor Richard's Almanack  1753

I hate mankind, for I think myself one of the best of them, and I know how bad I am.

~ Samuel Johnson  1709 - 1784

(from The Dark Side)
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on August 18, 2017, 04:06:55 pm
Alan R. Pratt wrote

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Schopenhauer was a brooding loner whose shrewd insights have had a profound impact on modern man's sense of self-worth.  Extreme pessimism, he argued, is the only outlook from which the world can be viewed objectively.  Optimism, Schopenhauer wrote, is not merely absurdly naive, but is a "really wicked way of thinking, a bitter mockery of the unspeakable sufferings of mankind."  His stark vision of the world, stripped of romantic and idealistic pretense, is at once terrifying and fascinating. 

Imagining himself the successor of Immanuel Kant, Schopenhauer was convinced that he had ascertained the "thing-in-itself," the metaphysical ground which underlies all reality - and it was totally evil, reducing human life to a stupid, self-defeating struggle.  The principle from which the world is formed is the Will, a blind, rapacious energy with no ultimate purpose or design other than gratification.  All the desires and motivations of mankind, all nature, in fact, are manifestations of Will.  The human body itself is Will objectified, a tool by which the Will manipulates and destroys to satisfy its primitive cravings.  Thus, each individual is locked in mortal combat with all other particular wills, competing for the resources that permit fleeting moments of satisfaction that must end in disillusionment and boredom.

While the Will constantly strives for satisfaction, it can never gratify its desires; it is ceaseless exertion and energy expended without purpose.  Thus, "all life is suffering."  Even if all myriad evils of the world were eliminated, boredom would immediately occupy their place.  Progress is a myth; human existence is a wholly meaningless enterprise, and man is doomed to an eternal round of frustration, strife, and misery.  Suicide then?  Suicide is a futile and foolish act because it merely eliminates the individual, not the entire wretched species.
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Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 08, 2017, 09:32:43 am
My life is one demd horrid grind.  ~ Charles Dickens

We, who neither recognize (not believe in) fortune or fate, or any personified force and necessity which compels and rules over us, have no one against whom to vent the feeling of hatred and horror (if we are magnanimous and constant and incapable of yielding) except against ourselves. ~ Giacomo Leopardi

Man (and other animals as well) is not born to enjoy life, but only to perpetuate it, to communicate it to others who follow him, to conserve it ... A frightful, but nevertheless a true proposition and conclusion of all metaphysics.  Existence is not for him who exists, nor is it for his end and good; and if he finds therein any good, it is just a pure chance; the person who exists is for existence, and nothing but existence, and this is his real pure aim ... All this is manifest if we see that the true and the only real aim of nature is the conservation of the species, and not the conservation or the happiness of the individual; which happiness does not exist in the world at all, neither for the individuals nor for the species.  Hence one must in the last stage come to the above mentioned general, supreme, and terrible conclusion.


Living is a misfortune, death a kindness.

 ~ Giacomo Leopardi

Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 09, 2017, 03:59:53 pm
I want to try the experiment whether one can be perfectly frank, even with oneself, and not take fright at the whole truth

He [man] is fond of striving toward achievement, but not so very fond of the achievement itself, and this is, naturally, terribly funny.  In short, man is constructed comically; there is evidently some joke in all this.

~ Notes from Underground - Fyodor Dostoevski


If God were suddenly condemned to live the life which he has inflicted on men, He would kill Himself. ~ Alexandre Dumas


Taken as a whole, the universe is absurd. ~ Walter Savage Landor


The idea of giving birth to someone fills me with horror.  I'd curse myself if I became a father.  A son of my own!  Oh, no, no, no!  Let my flesh perish with me, and let me not transmit to anyone the boredom and the ignominiousness of life.

The hypothesis of absolute void contains nothing at all which terrifies me.  I am ready to fling myself into the great black hole with perfect calm.


~ Correspondence - Gustave Flaubert

Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 12, 2017, 10:08:08 am
I look at this life and see the arrogance and the idleness of the strong, the ignorance and bestiality of the weak, the horrible poverty everywhere, overcrowding, drunkenness, hypocrisy, falsehood. . . . Meanwhile in all the houses, all the streets, there is peace; out of fifty thousand people who live in our town there is not one to kick against it all. Think of the people who go to the market for food: during the day they eat; at night they sleep, talk nonsense, marry, grow old, piously follow their dead to the cemetery; one never sees or hears those who suffer, and all the horror of life goes on somewhere behind the scenes. Everything is quiet, peaceful, and against it all there is only the silent protest of statistics; so many go mad, so many gallons are drunk, so many children die of starvation. . . . And such a state of things is obviously what we want; apparently a happy man only feels so because the unhappy bear their burden in silence, but for which happiness would be impossible. It is a general hypnosis. Every happy man should have some one with a little hammer at his door to knock and remind him that there are unhappy people, and that, however happy he may be, life will sooner or later show its claws, and some misfortune will befall him -- illness, poverty, loss, and then no one will see or hear him, just as he now neither sees nor hears others. But there is no man with a hammer, and the happy go on living, just a little fluttered with the petty cares of every day, like an aspen-tree in the wind -- and everything is all right.'

~ Anton Chekhov, Gooseberries (http://www.eldritchpress.org/ac/gooseb.html)

Title: How sweet it must be to die..
Post by: Holden on September 12, 2017, 10:26:32 am
I read all the major works by Chekov when I was in grade 11 and 12. I used to read him the whole night long. I used to weep and read him simultaneously. I guess I was born with a broken heart. Much water has flowed under the bridge but I still continue to weep. It gladdens my heart when I find you on-line.You are the only one to responded to my mail on that sad day in the summer of '14.

I remain as crazy as I was in those days.What am I to do with myself.I cannot change myself. This is how I am. You are a very kind man,Herr Hentrich.
The corporate job has turned me into a zombie-I walk and I talk but my heart has frozen. I am not sad because I am not rich or because I don't have a "girl friend" ,no, that is not it at all. I am sad because I have not been bold like van Gogh.

I would prefer to die like him,you see. I would prefer to die in utter poverty among my books rather than to slave away for these gorts.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 12, 2017, 11:07:39 am
Quote from: Holden
I would prefer to die like him,you see. I would prefer to die in utter poverty among my books rather than to slave away for these gorts.

I very much understand what you are saying and sympathize with how you feel.  I am sure there are those who question why, after all these years, have I not become bored and dissatisfied enough to just surrender and take some humble employment. 

It is a touchy subject.  One of the things that made the film Henry Fool so memorable for me was how Henry would preach to Simon about his need to quit his job.  What Henry was saying was so true, and yet sounds so funny to us because we are under the impression that there is no way out of the daily grind, that one has to be very fortunate to be employed at all (denying the very real feelings within the breast which say otherwise).

I have to admit, the same kind of attitude is what makes Toole's Igantius Reilly so appealing to me, even with all his defects of character.

I want to be a character such as Henry Fool or Ignatius Reilly.

You mention Van Gogh, yes - he is the real man who is not able to live as a "good employee". 

In our world, such "free spirits" must be willing to play the role of the fool, the idiot, or the mental patient.

There was a very funny post made by someone back in the days when we were posting in the WhyWork? forums.  (I knew those forums were targeted for destruction as the ideas go against the corporate work ethic in the global farm of the Industrial World).

I did a search here and found it in our Why Work? (http://whybother.freeboards.org/what-now/king-krimson-live-in-japan-1995/msg1456/#msg1456) section.

Keep a record of your thoughts on how you feel reporting to the workplace, as well as how you feel the night before having to report to work. 

This attitude we have is extremely subversive and goes against the whole "be all you can be" slave mentality.   Not desiring the carrot, will they not be forced to use the whip?  And yet, I felt so blessed to be employed by the State Park Service, and housed!  It was a Fool's Paradise.

As you say though, there are millions upon millions of youth (even college graduates) entering the workforce, all wanting to live as Lords.  They will be angry to find out they will just be well-dressed perfumed serfs.

At least the true scholars might embrace a minimalist lifestyle.  There are the few who will just take the attitude of Henry or Ignatius or Van Gogh.

But we are not dealing with the masses and statistics.  I know what you are facing.

I suppose my personal rebellion was a spontaneous response.  I sought higher education as a means to escape serfdom, and then found that I would be lower than a serf were i to drop out of the rat race altogether.

Now I just want to study for the sake of learning, and like Ignatius Reilly, I would strongly resist if anyone were to try to push me into "the middle class (http://whybother.freeboards.org/funny-stuff/a-confederacy-of-dunces/msg1812/#msg1812)".   

Down with the Middle Class!   :D

There is more than a little irony in the situation when you have the gorts pushing mathematics on their offspring with the hopes of them someday finding gainful employment with a High Tech Company, and then to have someone like me, who wants nothing to do with the structure and discipline required with such a position so as to have the leisure to do nothing other than studying that same math!
Title: the dark side: it is only cruel and stupid
Post by: The Indignant One on September 12, 2017, 12:06:03 pm
The third escape lies  in knowing that  life is evil  and absurd and putting an end to it by killing yourself.  I  understood this, but for some reason I  did not kill myself.  The fourth means of escape lies in knowing that life is as  Solomon and Schopenhauer have described it, knowing that it is a stupid joke being played on us, and yet continuing to live, to wash, dress, dine, talk, and even write books. Such a position was disgusting and painful to me, but I  remained in it all the same.

Now I see that if I  did not kill myself, it was because I  had some vague notion that my ideas were all wrong. However con­vincing and unquestionable the train of my thoughts and of the thoughts of the wise seemed to  me, the ideas that had led us to affirm the meaninglessness of life, I  still had some obscure doubt about the point of departure of my reflections.

My doubt was expressed in this way: I,  that is, my reason declared that life  is  irrational.  If  there is nothing higher than reason (and there is no way to prove that there is anything higher than it), then reason is the creator of life for me.  If there were no reason, then for me there would be no life. So how can this reason deny life when it is itself the creator of life? Or to put it differently: if there were no life, my reason would not exist either. Therefore, reason is the offspring of life. Life is all . Reason is the fruit of life,  and yet this reason denies that very life. I felt that something was wrong here.

"Life is an absurd evil; there is no doubting this," I  said to myself. "But I have lived, and I am still living; and all of humanity has lived and continues to live. How can  this be? Why do men live when they are able to die? Can it be that Schopenhauer and I are the only ones brilliant enough to have realized that life is meaningless and evil?"

Understanding the vanity of life is not so difficult, and even the simplest of people have understood it for a long time; yet they have lived and continue to live. How is it that they all go on living and never think to doubt the rationality of life?

My  acquired  knowledge, confirmed by  the  wisdom of  the wisest of  men, revealed to  me that everything  in  the  world, both  organic  and  inorganic, was  arranged with extraordinary intelligence; my  position alone was  absurd.  But  these fools, the  huge  masses of simple people, know nothing about the organic and inorganic arrangement of  the world, and yet they live, all  the while believing that life is arranged in a very rational manner!

It occurred to me that there still might be something that I  did not know. After all, ignorance acts precisely in this man­ner. Ignorance always says exactly what I was saying. Whenever it does not know something, it says  that whatever it does not know is stupid. It really comes down to this: all of mankind has lived and continues  to  live as  if it knew the  meaning of life, for without knowing the meaning of life it could not live; but I am saying that all this  life  is  meaningless  and  that  I cannot live.

No one prevents us from denying life, as Schopenhauer has done. So kill yourself, and you won't have to worry about it. If you don't like life, kill yourself. If you live and cannot understand the meaning of life, put an end to it; but don't turn around and start talking and writing about how you don't understand life. You are in cheerful company, for whom everything is going well, and they all know what they are doing; if you are bored and find it offensive, leave.

After all, if we are convinced of the necessity of suicide and do not go through with it, then what are we, if not the weakest, most inconsistent, and, to speak quite frankly, the most stupid of all people, fussing like foolish children over a new toy?

After all, our wisdom, however accurate it may be, has not provided us with an understanding of the meaning of life. Yet the millions who make  up  the  sum of  humanity take part in life without ever doubting the  meaning of life.
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If not today, then tomorrow sickness and death will come (indeed, they were already approaching) to everyone, to  me, and nothing will remain except the stench and the worms. My  deeds,  whatever they may be, will be forgotten sooner or later,  and I  myself will be no more. Why, then, do anything? How can anyone fail to see this and live? That's what is amazing! It is possible to live only as long as life intoxicates us; once we are sober we cannot help seeing that it is all a delusion, a  stupid delusion!  Nor is here anything funny or witty about it;  it is only cruel and stupid.

Leo Tolstoy, A Confession (http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/confessions-tolstoy.pdf)

One can only live while one is intoxicated with life; as soon is one is sober it is impossible not to see that it is all a mere fraud and a stupid fraud.

-------------------------------------------------
Note that the statement, "It [Life] is a stupid fraud." uses the "is of identiy".

How would this be worded using E-Prime?

The actual experience of a living human organism feels far different (to me) than how it is portrayed by science and religion.
Title: Kantian Pessimism
Post by: Holden on September 12, 2017, 07:55:58 pm
The Kantian Foundation of Schopenhauer's Pessimism by Dennis Vanden Auweele is so pricey that only libraries can afford it or millionaires.
Why is it that some philosophical books are so expensive to be out of the reach of the common man.Maybe they do not expect the common men to read such books.They expect them to feed, pay heed to boss and breed.

Well, I downloaded the free sample of the book.This is what Mr. Auweele says-"If Schopenhauer convinced me to become a pessimist,it is you(his lady friend) who is seducing me back to optimism.There might me hope yet".

Now,I do not have an undergraduate degree in philosophy ,let alone a doctorate like Mr. Auweele, so for all intents and purposes,who I write does not matter one whit. Neither I have a published a book,to say nothing of a pricey one.
But I tell you that this statement would not have been appreciated by Schopenhauer,at all. No,there is no hope.There never way.

The nature is strictly determined by the laws of understanding, Kant accepts that,like Schopenhauer. Only,Schopenhauer does not buy the God, Immortality ,Freedom nonsense from Kant.What he is left with is nature,red in tooth and claw,strictly determined by the laws of understanding.
There is no hope there for escape.

He gave it his best shot. Silence, really is the key. The realm of nature can be described with words ,more precisely,with mathematics.In the realm of the Will,only silence reigns.
This is how Wittgenstein plagiarises Schopenhauer's idea:
 My propositions are elucidatory in this way: he who understands me finally recognizes them as senseless, when he has climbed out through them, on them, over them... He must so to speak throw away the ladder...

So,what I am trying to say is that Herr Hentrich is in the right after all.All we can ever do is solve mathematical problems,for they pertain to the realm of the nature. The fields like sociology,psychology, economics, even philosophy to a very large extent are nothing but hogwash.

The idea is to study mathematics for its own sake. I think Herr Hentrich,you have made a genuine contribution to philosophy.









Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 12, 2017, 09:38:01 pm
Thanks for the heads up.  That is a pricey book, and published just this past April.  I was looking for the author, Dennis Vanden Auweele, in the Library Genesis database, and his 2016 work, Schopenhauer’s Fourfold Root (http://libgen.io/ads.php?md5=A3FBC15FDD701E313D22069E215A2BBC), is already there.

Give it time.  The Ruskies may be able to nab it for those of us on a limited income.

That quote about optimism and hope is a bit of a disappointment, I agree.

We sure do have a full plate to work through anyway as far as studying "the Kantian foundations" goes.

Each evening I have been closing the math textbooks a little earlier since I don't want to burn out, and it is such slow going.  It does calm me down to be in my own orbit though.  I would never have thought I would have taken this route, this humble and rigorously honest path of going through a long series of specific high school text books.

I do not think this will enable me to make any contributions to academic philosophy or literature, but I may be showing by example how, even after one is well past their prime and totally detached from academic or professional life, one might keep one's mental life somewhat "together" through committing oneself to a disciplined revisiting of "school mathematics".

Of course I still have to deal with everyday life, taking care of things as they come up, so there is no way to devote every waking hour to this.

It may not be the most romantic solution to coping with the sense of meaninglessness or the frustrations with disciplines devoted to searching for anwers to questions that have no meaningful answers. 

We just have to get through the hours and the days of our lives.

When the cost of an electronic copy of the work is over $50, we can call it "prohibitively expensive".  Does the cost make his work more valuable?

If we are to read it, it will come our way.  Maybe we should look him up and request a free copy, huh?  I mean, since we are authentic disciples of Schopenhauer, after all.

Maybe there exists a gulf between Schopenhauer scholars and Schopenhauer disciples.  Hmmmm .... Sehr interessant. 

Similarly, there may be a gulf between those who have a very high level of education in mathematics (PhD mathematicians) and those who approach mathematics exercises in textbooks as some kind of psychological experiment or even a spiritual exercise (to develop humility and inner [mental] honesty) where one becomes more and more comfortable with the way one's own mind goes about thinking about problems.

If my method of "disciplined study of fundamental mathematics for my own mental health" appeals just to a few people, one being yourself, then I will have made some kind of contribution.

I am sure you will find people all over the world who would agree that their interest in mathematics has become a central factor of their existence.

Philosophy itself, much like the gems from "Eastern Religions," has been absorbed into modern [Western?] pop psychology as a means to finding what people call "happiness" or "contentment" --- or even "inner peace" via meditation.  I can't be too critical of this tendency.  Who can blame anyone for trying to make some sense of this absurd situation we find ourselves in?

The thing with my interest in Schopenhauer is that I think he would see my lifestyle as a kind of "path of least resistance" or "as close to living in a one man monastery without a God as one can get.'

By going back to revisit fundamentals, and spending a great deal of time --- an exhaustive study engaged in day after day with a kind of religious dedication --- I do manage to short-circuit the insatiable "will to know".  I mean, I realize that I can not swallow all there is to know, and that I can only focus on so very little in any given present moment.

So many want to dive into subjects like Theoretical Physics or even Computational Physics, and yet, first thing in the morning, those same people may be surprised to witness their brains struggling to solve a far more elementary problem in basic Euclidean Geometry.

You mention the man who Schopenhauer visited in the mental asylum.  I think our efforts to spend our lives trying to better understand his philosophy would be respected by Schopenhauer himself.  The entire planet has become one huge Open Mental Asylum, and we are its inmates, each in his cell.  In fact, one can consider oneself fortunate just to have a cell to hide in.

I have no doubt that whatever we are able to discover in our study of the translations of Kant's work, along with what we have absorbed of Schopenhauer's thought, we will gladly post in as organized a fashion as we are able to, and that we would never seek the sell any of it, nor do I expect to be acknowledged as any kind of authority on Schopenhauer.

And yet!

We are Arhtur Schopenhauer's disciples.   It's kind of funny.  We have no authority since we are only disciples and not "scholars from the High Cultural Elite". 

May you find some peace in your readings and meditations.

For now, we'll have to forget about this scholar, Dennis Vanden Auweele, unless, of course, we want to take a look at Schopenhauer’s Fourfold Root (http://libgen.io/ads.php?md5=A3FBC15FDD701E313D22069E215A2BBC), which I mentioned above.

PS:  I don't want to sound bitter towards the work Auweele put into The Kantian Foundation of Schopenhauer's Pessimism.  I am confident that Schopenhauer would be glad that it will enrich the burgeoning field of Schopenhauer studies.  One day, we probably will read it ourselves (May Library Genesis be protected against those who do not believe in this kind of FREEdom.)

As for how I view my own personality, while I have been "scholarly" throughout my life, I do not have the patience or the discipline to approach any "Philosophy of Life" in a systematic manner.   I would never presume to devise any kind of systematic explanation of our lived experience.  Maybe I'm just humble or modest, or maybe I am just honestly stating a brute fact.   Whay i take Schopenhauer's word as gospel, i am not sure.  I just have this inexplicable trust that he put a great deal of thought into what I wrote, and that he felt he may have hit upon solving the riddle of existence, that life teaches us not to want it anymore, and that, in the final analysis, we are nothing.  There is no "I".  I do not exist.

Whatever it is that we call "I" is just as much in my head as it is in your head or in the head of this Dennis Vanden Auweele.  Since we are all equally nothing in the end, it really does not matter whether we contribute anything more to the field of Schopenhauer studies.  How we live and what becomes of us in this world (our fate?) may define us more sharply than any words we have written.

In death we are nothing, and so I would like to get used to this state of being nothing, being nobody.  This is what we really are ... nothing.

When we are engaged in figuring out how to go about solving some mathematics problem, we are using our brains, juggling abstract mental constructions.  It's a weird sensation.

With philosophy, religion, sociology, politics, two people can come to different conclusions based on their opinions.  This is not so with mathematics.  I like that when we look at the same polygon and attempt to determine how many triangles will fit in it by drawing lines from one vertex to all the other vertices, that we will come up with the same solution.  It doesn't even matter that triangles only exist as mental constructs.

PS:
If there were a "religious symbol" that best representated "science," it would be the Cartesian plane, the x-y axes, or the x-y-z axes.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 13, 2017, 09:48:52 am
The childish confidence that it is granted to us to discover truth has long since disappeared; as we progress we become aware of the difficulties that lie in the way of its discovery and of the limitation of our powers.  ~ Richard Avenarius, Critique of Pure Experience 1890
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on September 13, 2017, 05:15:50 pm
Hentrich,
Sorry, I "kant" say anything about Kant. But let me say this world we live in, us humans, is a “giant gutter”. If there is a Creator of this universe, this creator is son of a **** and clearly this entity enjoys every second of torture it inflicts. Does the entity respect the so called freedom of its creatures? Is this entity moved by suffering? No, it throws them to this landfill. I heard that we are both male and female. So the separation of sexes is artificial. The most beautiful woman is a man in disguise. Men have ****. Do men breast feed?   Two sexes are better than one. While one sex spends the time breeding and taking care of the new little slaves, the other can work in agriculture, brick laying or whatever. Only one sex is not enough to  look after the babies, or working. Two sexes are needed for the human farm. Exploitation to the maximum.
Even if there are no humans, only animals on the planet, animals also behave horribly. Much blood is shed. 
But we accept it, we breed, we do not care about the weakest and as long bad things do not happen to me, everything is all right. And when bad things happen to us, there we react showing our fake compassion. We lack empathy. We follow our programming. We resemble our bloodthirsty creators. Who can guarantee that we are bio machines?
Most look for a mate, pay taxes, go and vote, and when Christmas comes, they will have a big dinner and get drunk at New Year´s Day. On January 6th, the parents will go and get presents for the children. It is everyday programming. On Sunday guys go to the stadium for soccer. Everything programmed. Only a few realize this. A perfect programming for farm animals.  Automatons.

Well, you have two choices: one you become a lamb or you become a predator. If you are a lamb, you survive by being humiliated, mocked, ridiculed and damaged. If you are a predator you stomp on the face of others, you kill in order to survive, and of course in due time other predators will come and get you.
I think the entire universe should cease to exist.
Drive safely.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 13, 2017, 08:48:18 pm
Quote from: Raul
Hentrich,
Sorry, I "kant" say anything about Kant. But let me say this world we live in, us humans, is a “giant gutter”. If there is a Creator of this universe, this creator is son of a **** and clearly this entity enjoys every second of torture it inflicts.

I kant say much about Kant's writings either.  The only things that really stick with me are that his phenemena are Schopenhauers representations and his noumena, the things-in-themselves, are Schopenhauer's Wills.

Sometimes when reading Kant, I get the feeling that I am crashing a party I was never invited to.

I don't think we have to concern ourselves with a creator god enjoying the misery of the created creatures.  If anything, the universe is just a brute fact and evolution is a process that just is.

In plain language, there are things that are just beyond our comprehension.  Even Kant had to violate his own rules.  I mean, in order to set the limits of reason, he had to go beyond those limits.

Man is a wild animal, and men feel this need to explain everything like boys whistling in the dark.

I have always thought of myself as having a sense of humor, but a true sense of humor would allow me to find our situation kind of comical.  As you know, there is nothing funny about it. 

Cioran said that one has to be a monster to be able to see reality as it is.

We are always with ourselves, so we know how unpleasant our nature can become when we are groggy (sleepy) or hungry or tired or just irritable. 

The universe is indifferent to our discomforts and our anxieties.  We are the universe itself, we are things-in-themselves.   

Quote from: Raul
I think the entire universe should cease to exist.

I really think that this is the core message of Schopenhauer's philosophy.  While many will argue about the technical details, the way I see it, since we are manifestations of the will to live, the thing-in-itself of the universe, and each of us is the center of this universe (from our perspective), as we grow tired of "being ourselves," the will is learning not to want to exist.

So, there is not really a Creator to blame, for it (the universe) exists as us, so when you say you think the entire universe should cease to exist, maybe you are the entire universe just very tired of itself.  If you look at it this way, we are the same "thing" feeling the same way.

In fact, there are many who feel this way, maybe not consciously, but during the night in their slep, or the moment they gain consciousness from sleep.

We begin to sense a mild hatred for everyone around us, including ourselves.  This is the misery and wretchedness that many people are ashamed to admit ever feeling.  Because of the shame associated with these feelings, self-deception and delusion run rampant.  It may be true to say that life depends on us not being aware of how we really feel about being alive. 

Schopenhauer said that life depends on us not knowing it too well.

This means that life depends on not knowing itself too well.

But we are Life, and we have been discussing how we really feel about it.

This is a kind of higher consciousness communicating with itself.  We do not need to lie to each other.  We're just having a long (nearly private) conversation, comparing notes, seeing if what we feel sounds crazy or not.   

Take care, Raul, and thanks for continuing to verbalize your unpopular thoughts here.

You observe the daddies taking their sons to the soccer games.  It's a bunch of hype over nothing.  What a bunch of monkeys human beings are in large groups like that.

I much prefer interacting with human beings on the level that you, Holden, and I (and a couple others) do here.

By the way, when someone shares something here, it does color my daily life.   All day I wanted to respond to every request with "I would prefer not to. (http://www.bartleby.com/129/)"  (Thanks Maughan (http://whybother.freeboards.org/what-now/i-was-not-invited-but-i-turned-up-anyway/msg3364/#msg3364))

I want to become weirder and weirder.  I think that studying math every day will help me become more and more weird, as far as not being anything like those daddies taking their sons to soccer, footbal, basketball games.  I like being this outsider.

Life itself is strange and weird and, yes, even creepy.

Sometimes I am in such a foul mood that I suspect I too am evil, but so what if I were.  When I was a child experiencing a nightmare-dream which involved an evil demonic anhtropomorphic monster, I would actually attempt to befriend the Thing.  I thought that were I able to become as evil as it, this would protect me. 

I have heard that some people are too good for this world.  They are not evil enough to face another day.

I ate my eggs today.   I ate hot dogs with German sour Kraut on wheat bread.  Then, for dinner I ate a zucchini from the garden which I made spiggeti out of with sauce made from the tomatoes.  I drank espresso throughout the day, and I repressed the rage within me so I would not be too mean to my mother when she began to weigh on my nerves.

Why do I tell you this?  You did not ask.   Well, I want to show you that even though I am trying to read the translations of Kant, I only do this for about an hour each night, so I do not intend to make great progress.  When I am able to find a calm state of mind, I lay on the floor and solve a handful of math problems as I am committed to getting through a couple textbooks before the end of the year.

Such books become like a drug for me.  I feel fortunate that I am able to do something so forbidden as studying math instead of looking for a job.  Most people in my situation either struggle with drug and alcohol dependency daily, or they are trapped in some kind of "day program" [read: DAY JAIL] where fully grown adults are treated like kindergarten students - very humilating and denigrating. 

This is it for me:  math is my drug of choice.  It's what I do to isolate from mass society, and I don't have to pay any dealer or the Buddha at the liquor store.  Don't get me wrong, I used to love my weed medicine man as well as the Buddha at the liquor store, but, don't you see that I now have access to my drugs (math texts and solution manuals) as long as I stay out of jail, refrain from being seduced into gainful employment, continue to live as a celibate godless monk, and stubbornly refuse to fit into society?

I don't mind being a weirdo.  It gives me the opportunity to listen to someone like you who states frankly that you wish the universe would cease to exist.  If only more people would give some attention to such forbidden thoughts (within themselves), we might raise the level of consciousness and empathy on this planet.

The rich man is not immune to these feelings either.  There must be countless who have attained postions of wealth and power who are tasting misery and wretchedness to the dregs.  They can afford to feed their brains as much coc-aine as they wish.  You know where that will lead?   They can play with the fire, the primordial thing that they are toying with cannot be satisfied.  The more they feed it, the more it will want.

Be wise, be weird.  It is very likely that far more people feel the way we do than we can imagine, but they may have already brought offspring into this world for whatever reason, maybe for no reason at all.  Now, they feel that getting through life is just a problem their offspring will have to deal with, and they are right.  By "right" I do not mean they are justified, I simply mean that, yes, now their offspring have to deal with the burden their own existence will become to them.

At least you are able to wrap your mind around the situation with a grin.  You see through the farce and you are nobody's fool.

Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: Holden on September 13, 2017, 09:49:59 pm
I had read the transcript of Henry Fool when you had first mentioned it as it was not available on youtube then.Now,it is .Just finished watching it:

https://youtu.be/r6er1x2no2g

https://youtu.be/pa31PbLhvJ4
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 14, 2017, 12:19:55 pm
What did you think of Henry Fool?  The film available on ZooTube is running at a fast speed. 

Another couple quotes from Alan R. Pratt's The Dark Side:

There is no greater grief than that of being alive, nor any greater affliction than conscious life. ~ Ruben Dario Cantos de vida y esperanza 1905

My way of joking is to tell the truth.  It's the funniest joke in the world. ~ George Bernard Shaw
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: Holden on September 14, 2017, 09:58:14 pm
At the moment I am completely incapacitated by severe depression. Unable to even frame articulate sentences.
Title: To Herr Hentrich and Senor Raul
Post by: Holden on September 15, 2017, 03:56:52 am

To Herr Hentrich and Senor Raul,

I think he is a great character. Do you think I can be like him? Can you tell me something, if someone who claims to be a disciple of Schopenhauer committed suicide then what do you think he will say about that?
Do you think he will look upon him kindly? I am a wreck.
Weeping and crying all the time. Do you think it would be better if I put an end to this misery once and for all. Why prolong it unnecessarily?
There is only more pain and more disappointments to be had. Why keep torturing oneself?
I can barely move –my heart is so heavy with sadness.They all blame me for my plight. They say that it is of my own making. If only I would cheer up & keep the chin up-I’d be okay.
But I am not okay,I never have been okay. Talking with the others is a nightmare for me. Here I can talk freely as I am hidden and you are like minded.Why would nature create someone as faint hearted as myself? How come the genes which drive me did not go extinct a long time ago or am I supposed to be the organism with whom they would get extinct? What a burden it is to carry these genes.
Do you think maybe if I quit my full time corporate job and starting doing something from home-like maybe selling horror books and the like I would feel better,like you once suggested.? But who on earth is going to buy horror books from me when they have  Amazon to go to?
Which  decade of your life was the most painful? Was it your 30s or 40s?Huge headache and complete disorientation. I can barely breathe.My panic attacks are getting more severe and increasingly frequent.
How to fill up the days when every day feels like an year?  I cannot bring myself to eat though hunger gnaws at my stomach-what a complete mess I am.
Yesterday I got so depressed with office politics that I told my relatives that I want to enrol in a med school –you see I thought that as a doc I would be able to run a clinic on my own, alone and not have anything to do with anyone else-people who mock me and make fun of me.
But that was a big mistake and those relatives got annoyed and said while it is true that I need to go a med school –it is as a mental patient and not as a student. Yes,so that is what I am for them –a lunatic.
I feel like killing myself but cannot muster enough courage to go through with it. As Gary says,I am addicted to him and this addiction, I can tell you for a fact is far worse than the coke addiction.
Why would something torment me like this with no rhythm or reason.
I feel terrible. One pain after another with no end in sight. I feel like a monster. I feel like a scared little rabbit running away for its life-but from what and to what?
You remember how I told you about doing something professionally with maths? Pure fantasy.
Something I sew together to comfort myself. They howl at me that I should get married and they tell me that I would feel better then. Well,they can go to hell. Everything they ever made me do has only
aggravated my already insane condition.

https://youtu.be/vWZapP8b11s
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 15, 2017, 06:24:10 am
Holden,

While I certainly would never make light of what you are describing, I have to say that it at least makes sense.  What I mean to say is that I appreciate your honesty.

I don't know what to make of those who insist that they are "happy".  Suppose a married couple insists that they are happy.  Many people would take issue with the claim that happiness is neither possible or even meaningful if it were possible.

Or an old childhood friend who writes that he is filled with hope and optimism (third marriage), and he actually thinks hope and optimism are good things.

I often suspect people just habitually lie.  Really.  And yet, the last thing I would want to do is insult anyone by suggesting that this is what is going on.  I simply say that i do not see how anything like happiness is possible given that we are these animals wired with consciousness.  I can't be the only one who is highly sensitive to exactly how it feels to be alive.   I suppose the only true reality is on the silent unspeakable level beyond reason, and so we can never expect to be able to communicate clearly with any other being.  Often people express the feeling that their pet dog understands them better - or has more sympathy for them when they are down in the dumps.   On a certain level, the animal also understands how unpleasant life is, and it sympathizes with the one who helps the animal with its natural born affliction of needing to eat food to live.

Ah, but what about puppies and how carefree they can be?  The same puppy whimpers in the dark for his mama, "Lord, why have you forsaken me?"


Optimism is wicked.

People who lie to others about how "happy" they may be acting kind of wicked as well.  They certainly don't mean to be wicked, but by insisting that they are a personal witness to this state of "happiness," they resemble those who think that all that is necessary to verify the existence of "God" is that they themselves are in personal communication with "Him" or "It".   I do not let it bother me.  I keep my real thoughts to myself since pointing out that things like happiness and gods are make-believe magical thinking would be offensive and cause serious friction.

The thing is, people can say or believe whatever they wish.  Communication with other human beings may be especially frustrating to one with a high degree of intellectual honesty and a kind of integrity which refuses to deny the ever present anxiety and generally unpleasant nature of being alive.

One must honor the delusions of others if one wishes to have any "conversations".  Also, maybe people are being kind in announcing that they have been feeling consistently happy or cheerful so that those who care about them do not worry about them.    I don't wish to totally alienate everyone.  Being totally honest is simply not polite.  At least you respect me enough to openly spill your guts about your inner reality.

Myself, I can say I have felt consistently irritable and agitated, but not to the extent that I lose my temper.  I have simply acclimated myself to living in my skin.  This creature that I am is easily annoyed.  I try to be as patient as possible WITH MYSELF and others.

I refuse to try to figure out why people insist on promoting happiness as a most desirable state.  Maybe this is one of the requirements for keeping a "romantic" relationship together: it requires a certain degree of agreeing to believe in fairy tales and "magic".  Wouldn't it make more sense to experience every little annoyance and anxiety and just develop the capacity to cope with it without losing one's temper?

Do you think it is true that happiness is an impossibility in this life?

Even if there were such a thing as "contentment", is such a state even meaningful?

I realize that happiness is just a word, just as God is just a word.  When I am sleeping (or trying to sleep) many things go around and around in my brain.  It is not that I wish sadness or heartache or agony on anyone.  It's just that I have a sense that what some people call happiness I would find extremely inauthentic if not an outright lie.

I am relieved that I am not married, that I am not under constant pressure to make things "happy" and "upbeat".

I am sorry you are feeling so awful, but I very much appreciate your honesty.  I realize also that your feelings are beyond irritability and are better described as severe depression.

So, if you don't mind, could you answer a few questions for me?  I ask these not as a "doctor" or "psychologist," but as a fellow existentialist philosopher.

Do you think that happiness is even possible in this life?   What do you make of those who insist they experience long periods (months) of happiness?   What about those who repress negative experiences and only remember things that make them feel good inside?   

Do you think that most "couples" practice a mild form of deception in order to be kind to their mate, to spare them any further burdens?

Why is it you think your relatives believe the lie?  - the lie that, if you would just settle down with a girl, how you would stop feeling so "suicidal"?

Often a failed romance can be the final nail in the coffin.

I do not think Schopenhauer is anywhere watching anything.   He did not condemn suicide at all, but he did not see this as a denial of the will.  In fact, paradoxically, the act of taking one's own life is actually a very WILLFUL act which says "I refuse this incarnation."

I see it as a very powerful act of defiance and have found myself deeply admiring certain such acts, for instance, when people were captured to be sold into chattel slavery, and certain strong-willed individuals were actually able to stop their own breath or kill themselves by eating dirt ...

Many have chosen death over a life in chains.

I've heard stories of Natives in North America during the worst parts of colonialism who would prefer being filled with bullets in their backs than be captured and put inside a cell losing their freedom of natural movement and self-determination.

It is a very personal and private decision, but  let the idea of it bring you some comfort and relief.  Was it Nietzsche who said that the thought of suicide got him through many nights of insomnia.

Cioran said that were it night for the idea of suicide he would have killed himself.

People can be cruel and vulgar, and family members can be outright stupid and insensitive.  I would suggest that you allow your depression to guide you.

Maybe you will have to undergo a series of inner transformations that might allow you not to care so much about what your family thinks will make you "less of a burden to yourself".  Maybe you will learn not to allow the politics in the office get under your skin.

Myself, I don't know what you are actually feeling, and I am presently feeling pretty damn stable.   I attempted suicide at age 19 because I no longer wanted to work 2 jobs (pizza place and hamburger joint) while commuting over an hour back and forth to a community college studying "accounting".   I rejected that life, ended up homeless back in my hometown, and then got into trouble.  Then I simply lived through it.

Some funny things happened along the way.

The next time I seriously wanted to jump off the roof of a large historic house was when I was about 29 ...  I had a job, had demanded a live-in girl friend leave me, was trying to get through community college (again, but this time enjoying it - computer science, calculus, physics), but was struggling with substances ... and it did hurt to breathe.   I mean, I was leading at least three different lives and it was all coming to a head.  I wanted it to just end.

A year later I would be arrested (again ... just like after my suicide attempt 10 years earlier).

There is a saying that it is better to get cigarettes in jail than flowers at the cemetery.

Depression and anger are related.  I think anger is healthier and less pathological.

A woman once told me that she suspected many of us "ought not to have been born".

If this is the case, we really just have to get through this.   

I think it would help humanity if you were to just write about your experiences for those who are as honest as yourself who might come after you and appreciate knowing they are not alone in feeling that way (at times).

It may pass.   You may become a more angry but less depressed man.   So be it.

Become angry that you have to endure such abuse at the workplace.   Just don't lose your head.



 
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on September 15, 2017, 06:35:49 am
Holden,
"There is only more pain and more disappointments to be had. Why keep torturing oneself?"
I often ask myself the same question. Maybe as Rust Cohle in True Detective said: "I lack the proper constitution for suicide."

Did you and Hentrich not write that Schopenhauer that the many types of suicide are not satisfactory because it is sucumbing to one´s will instead of denying it. The denial of the Will is the correct response to life? You wrote about starving.

"I can barely move –my heart is so heavy with sadness.They all blame me for my plight. They say that it is of my own making. If only I would cheer up & keep the chin up-I’d be okay."
You, me ,Hentrich and others will be always blamed for feeling sad all the time. They need us to keep the system going. That´s what they want.

"Why would nature create someone as faint hearted as myself?"
This is the one -million dollar question as we say here. Maybe to wear witness.

"But that was a big mistake and those relatives got annoyed and said while it is true that I need to go a med school –it is as a mental patient and not as a student. Yes,so that is what I am for them –a lunatic."
I understand that you needed to vent but your relatives do not want or do not have the patience to listen to you.

"Do you think maybe if I quit my full time corporate job and starting doing something from home-like maybe selling horror books and the like I would feel better,like you once suggested.? But who on earth is going to buy horror books from me when they have  Amazon to go to?"

There are other things you can start if you decide to quit the job. This job has given you  much experience and enables you to see other activities.

"You remember how I told you about doing something professionally with maths? Pure fantasy.
Something I sew together to comfort myself. They howl at me that I should get married and they tell me that I would feel better then. Well,they can go to hell. Everything they ever made me do has only aggravated my already insane condition."

I think you should continue with mathematics, philosophy and literature. I know nothing about marriage but I get the impression that if I ever marry I will only make the woman suffer. Not fair.

 
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 15, 2017, 10:16:04 am
Quote from: Raul
I know nothing about marriage but I get the impression that if I ever marry I will only make the woman suffer. Not fair.

  There is something to be said for being up front about a certain unwillingness to "make believe".   I refuse to believe in unicorns or dream of owning a horse farm or some other goal.  The thing to keep in mind is that it would not be fair to have to conceal one's true feelings and thoughts so as to protect the psyche of a partner.  How is it even possible to maintain integrity when the main goal is mutual harmony?

I am not fit for what is required.  I am too honest for marriage or employment.

Somehow Cioran lasted in a long-term relationship, so it may be possible that there are couples out there who can co-exist even when when has a dismal view of existence.

It's tricky though.  I suspect that the majority of people in all cultures place too much value on securing a mate, and that some may be better off alone.

People may assume that everyone who is not paired off desires to be, and that the root of their misery is a lack of affection in their day to day existence.  The main reason I am not at all drawn to "social media" and prefer this message board is because my views would invite a constant challenge to my worldview. 

I'm not sure if my age has something to do with it, but my condition is most often a state of agitation, irritability, and a desire to be alone.  I have not shed a tear since I stopped imbibing alcohol.   Hard liquor would set me into a rage, but a certain amount of beer or wine would have me sobbing.   I know I have mentioned here before that when asked by a psychiatrist why I continued to drink on a regular basis, I explained to her that I liked to cry.  For some sick reason, I actually felt that curling in the fetal position in the corner of a room with Kate Bush blaring to cover my sobs was somehow "cleansing".

Now, without the emotional lubricant of alcohol, I hardly feel anything but annoyed and agitated.  I do not make any value judgment either way.  This is just an honest observation.

Is it emotional stability or just the consequence of not caring so much anymore?   Or, is it all just chemical reactions?   If I were to walk down to the liquor store and then indulge in a Mr. Hyde ritual, would I blast music and dance around joyfully or sob in the corner in the fetal position or go into a rage?

I prefer not to find out.   I'll stick with the kind of misery I am used to ... a mild brooding resignation.

wind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsPDH2BrUGc)

I don't know why your family thinks that pairing you off with a woman will cure all your existential angst, but their views are quite common.   The song, Candle in the Wind, was about Marilyn Monroe who said she would rather be alone by herself than alone with someone else.  Being in a "long term relationship" does not imply that those in such relationships are not alone, existentially speaking.

Have you ever read Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury?  What struck me about that novel more than the outlawing of literature was the way his wife sat before the television screens on the walls.  How many countless individuals end up in relationships or even marriages as a means to escaping themselves?

We have to endure ourselves.

I know you enjoy watching films.  Have you ever seen Altered States?  There is a scene in that film where the main character divorces his wife because he would prefer to inflict the pain of existence on himself rather on another person.

In a way, he was taking Raul's attitude, knowing that his degree of consciousness most likely would have a disturbing effect on the poor woman who bonded with him.  Likewise, for me, I have no false delusions about this.  I would not want to be responsible for another person's psyche.

Similarly, I may be doing the workforce a favor by not infecting other employees with my depressive realism.  It's more complicated than words can describe.

I hope that your engagement with this message board has not increased the feelings of hopelessness for you.

Myself, i am currently thinking constantly about how to develop the ability to feel miserable without becoming suicidal.  Is there a way to resign oneself to feeling this way without inviting others to suggest remedies and cures?

In Huxley's Brave New World, "the Savage" had one demand:  the right to be unhappy.

Maybe you could just keep a record of how your brain operates, jotting down exactly how you feel about the events and moments you are conscious.  To a certain extent, we will always hold things back when writing for an audience, even for an audience of two or three.

Writing can be an alternative to suicide.    It might help if you observe your feelings as some kind of lab animal.  Observe this poor creature's response to existence.  Keep a record of "its" psychological and emotional experiences.

Maybe you might "lean into" your life-experiences and develop some remarkable coping mechanisms.  It is not so much other people and the world itself that you are forced to cope with, but your own internal reactions.  If your sensitivity heightens your despair, maybe you can learn some psychological methods to help make your more immune to what you perceive as mockery.

Recall the quotes by Samuel Beckett and Michel Houellebecq (http://whybother.freeboards.org/general-discussion/pessimistic-passages/msg1062/#msg1062).
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on September 15, 2017, 04:02:17 pm
Hentrich,
"I am not fit for what is required.  I am too honest for marriage or employment."

Most lackthe honesty to say these words. Sometimes I am very bitter that my parents did not divorce a long time ago. But the pressure of society is too strong and two people not fit to stay together made our lives very difficult. And this happens everywhere. We swallow the lies because we are forced to.

"It's tricky though.  I suspect that the majority of people in all cultures place too much value on securing a mate, and that some may be better off alone."
I agree with you. I think that all these rituals of marriage enforce the continuation of the human species.

"The main reason I am not at all drawn to "social media" and prefer this message board is because my views would invite a constant challenge to my worldview."
You may give your views in the social media but you risk becoming a "celebrity". Therefore you end up being attacked on all the corners of the earth by people who will not understand nor appreciate your views.

"Now, without the emotional lubricant of alcohol, I hardly feel anything but annoyed and agitated.  I do not make any value judgment either way.  This is just an honest observation.
With alcohol I also felt annoyed  and agitated. Many years ago I ended up on the street without my shoes and my glasses because I was robbed while sleeping drunk and had to walk barefoot. I understand why many drink or take drugs.

"I don't know why your family thinks that pairing you off with a woman will cure all your existential angst, but their views are quite common."
Most people have no idea what existential angst means. They think only about work, money, vacations, clothes, children (if any), women and after hours. Here we have "after hours" pubs where the office workers go after leaving work at five p.m.
So people who think like you and Holden are as strange as the black moon.

"Similarly, I may be doing the workforce a favor by not infecting other employees with my depressive realism.  It's more complicated than words can describe."
I have to say that, we, slaves, do not see that way. Our artificial worth is defined by the jobs and by the levels of productivity. Every moment of the day that escapes the universe of work are wasted hours, despair and loneliness appear. Without Work, we are nothing, we are nobodies.  Even consumption has to be connected to a work-related activity. In the office we are supposed to find happiness,joy and self-respect. It is like in the Middle Ages, outside of the church there is no salvation.

"Writing can be an alternative to suicide.    It might help if you observe your feelings as some kind of lab animal.  Observe this poor creature's response to existence.  Keep a record of "its" psychological and emotional experiences."
Yes, writing is a good activity although we do not write all what we think or feel. Sometimes language cannot grasp what it is in our heads and hearts. Of course we do not write everything. Every person is a world inside and that world has many secret doors and passages and in those passages there is much darkness.






 

 

 
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 15, 2017, 09:19:06 pm
Quote from: Raul
Yes, writing is a good activity although we do not write all what we think or feel. Sometimes language cannot grasp what it is in our heads and hearts. Of course we do not write everything. Every person is a world inside and that world has many secret doors and passages and in those passages there is much darkness.

You expressed this beautifully.  I once read somewhere that the source of tears is where the brain reaches a point where it cannot find words to express its feelings.

Maybe those who cry the most are those with an inner world too far beyond the limits of alphanumeric symbols and beyond reason itself.

I too very much sympathize with and understand why anyone would wish to partake in a bit of chemical lubrication or seek euphoria via alcohol and drugs.    Fortunately for me, I have limited resources, and most of that is going to help my mother remain living in her home (with myself as her faithful even if a little grumpy dog/man-son).  It is a very natural arrangement.

I strongly suspect that if my mother did not need me in her life, I most likely would succumb to my inclinations to seek oblivion.   

The main reason I have not held any information back, down to the tiniest detail, about what exactly it is I focus my attention on, as far as mathematics, philosophy, literature, and even computer programming goes, is because I think that I may have stumbled upon something which Holden de Northern India might find helpful in taking his mind off the drudgery of daily existence.

It is not that these activities fill me with joy.  Far from it.  It's just that there does seem to be a certain part of the mind that, when engaged, is temporarily liberated from the miserable pressure of the will and the politics of everyday life. 

Even Bertrand Russell, who was kind of a heavy duty mathematician and philosopher, was so pained by existence that, as a young man, he claimed he surely would have committed suicide were in not for his desire to understand more of mathematics.

I suppose it is hard to justify spending time studying something like programming or mathematics if it is not going to help one find gainful employment.  In these times, when more and more people find themselves unemployed or "underemployed," I suspect that activities like math and programming will become something individuals will engage in just for the mental stimulation, much like our fellow sufferers who enjoy playing music for its own sake, or even those who paint with no intention of ever being employed by some kind of advertising company.

Take care, Fellow-Sufferers.
Title: To Herr Hentrich and Senor Raul:How to de-fang the Noumenon
Post by: Holden on September 16, 2017, 04:05:41 am
To Herr Hentrich and Senor Raul,

Is happiness possible in life? Not if the noumenon is fanged.One cannot defang the noumenon.
Most people including my relatives think of me as deadbeat.
I think we have stumbled upon a conspiracy far more secretive and nefarious than the so-called Illuminati.
could ever dream about.

I have been having nightmares over the last few nights. Terrible ones,more Kafkaesque than Kafka.
As the Upanishads say I am the wound with nine holes. In the final analysis, it is all about getting rid of

time.
This strong,constant spurt and surge that the "Will to Live" is,is positively evil and cannot be easily tamed.
In ancient India,or so I have heard, the ascetics used to leave their towns and villages for the Himalayas.
Individually, not as a group. There, they used to make sure that they had complete solitude.

They used to servive only on the roots and fruits of the plants around them. They used to contemplate on the
nature of existence the whole day long.
The machine that is this society is grotesque and most absurd.

How come we have millions of unemployed people all around and yet the offices are perpetually under staffed and are the staff are over worked? There you have the "Will to Live" at its worst.

Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on September 16, 2017, 07:02:02 am
Holden,
Is it not coming to this world a conspiracy? I believe it is.
Do you remember your nightmares? Maybe it is a good idea if you could write them down.

"The machine that is this society is grotesque and most absurd."
Indeed it is. And we are cogs in this machine. We oil the evil machine. The machine needs the living puppets because without puppets the orders of the Master would be howling in the wind.

Take care of yourself.

Title: How would they cleanse the Lucifer from his Sins by sending him to Purgatory?
Post by: Holden on September 16, 2017, 08:47:38 pm
I must thank you,Herr Hentrich and you,Senor Raul for your kind and insightful words. They have been very,very helpful to me.
Do you think that happiness is even possible in this life?   What do you make of those who insist they experience long periods (months) of happiness?   What about those who repress negative experiences and only remember things that make them feel good inside?   

Do you think that most "couples" practice a mild form of deception in order to be kind to their mate, to spare them any further burdens?

Why is it you think your relatives believe the lie?  - the lie that, if you would just settle down with a girl, how you would stop feeling so "suicidal"?


The idea as Cioran puts it so well is to endure oneself. I do not believe in romantic love. How did Cioran manage to write so darkly yet have a long term relationship? Let's be charitable and say that that's one in a billion scenario.
They used the "Marriage Card" as a weapon to keep me in line,in the sense, that "don't ever think about leaving your job", "as it is you are unconventional enough", "if you try to talk about leaving the job and we would pester you with the possibility of your marriage."


I agree,there is such a thing as being too honest to be an employee or a husband. In fact, I think one of the reasons the Management hates my guts is because my defiant attitude gives the other employees something of an alternative to being a brown- noser.I know for a fact that there is at least one person in the office on whom my pessimistic attitude,to a degree, was rubbing off ,so the Management decided to crush both of us by sending us to far off ,different sections. THERE DEFINITELY IS A CONSPIRACY. They want everyone to know their place.

I think in most cases the Employer and the Family are hand in glove.They both almost coordinate to keep a man down. Anything which sticks out even slightly is mowed down mercilessly . Now,the young man has been sent to another section.Fine. He has been sent to the Purgatory  which is supposed to cleanse him from him sins.They believe I suppose,that I was 'corrupting' him. I used to tell him things like-"Don't give a damn about Promotions and the "Performance Related Pay". I think ,they would succeed too,he has a young wife and a kid. They have him by the balls.

Myself ,to quote Skynyrd,"I am free as a bird now, And this bird you can not change. And this bird you can not change. And this bird you can not change."
Senor Raul,you live in a predominately Catholic country,tell me, if I am wrong when I say this:

Quote
In Roman Catholic theology,Purgatory  is an intermediate state after physical death in which some of those ultimately destined for heaven must first "undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," holding that "certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come." And that entrance into Heaven requires the "remission before God of the temporal punishment due to [venial] sins whose guilt has already been forgiven," for which indulgences may be given which remove "either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin," such as an "unhealthy attachment" to sin. Only those who die in the state of grace but have not yet fulfilled the temporal punishment due to their sin can be in Purgatory, and therefore no one in Purgatory will remain forever in that state nor go to hell.


So,this is their trick.They take the youth,who exhibit a tendency to deviate from the gort norm and put them in the Purgatory,with the promise that if that "if they behave" ,they may yet get another "chance".That youth is in a limbo now.
But tell me,can the Gort-God send Lucifer himself to the Purgatory to cleanse him from his "sins"?In a word,no.
Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven.I want to assure both of you, that I remain defiant, both with regard to the prospects of marriage and that of having a long term "career".My job ,at most,is only a stop gap arrangement. That is all it is. I told my boss the other day not to entertain such absurd thoughts that I give a rap about  what my "Performance Appraisal" is going to be like.

They have asked the youth to shun my company and in return he will have "bright long term career prospects".So be it.Let him become the CEO.I would just remain the pessimistic dead beat. Solitude is the best society.
They give me this option- "Choose the gort way of life  or be for ever fall'n.I choose to be "for ever fall'n. I am too much of a wolf to ever become a gort pet puddle or a lap dog.

Innumerable force of Spirits armed,
That durst dislike his reign, and me preferring,
His utmost power with adverse power opposed
In dubious battle on the plains of Heaven
And shook his throne. What though the field be lost?
All is not lost—the unconquerable will,
And study of revenge, immortal hate,
And courage never to submit or yield;
And what is else not to be overcome?

-Milton


Post Scriptum: Senor Raul,I would be writing about my nightmare in section named "Why Sleep".
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: Holden on September 16, 2017, 09:24:40 pm
The Gort God must be defied.
https://youtu.be/5FqeMjn8IJM
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on September 17, 2017, 07:25:35 am
Holden,
Thank you for you response. You have a talent for writing as I can clearly see when you share your thoughts in this board. Your talent must not be wasted.

"Why is it you think your relatives believe the lie?  - the lie that, if you would just settle down with a girl, how you would stop feeling so "suicidal"?"
Everywhere this is a problem. I remember twenty-three years ago when one of my uncles complained that I had no girlfriend. Moralistic motherfucker. Much later I wasl told that my aunt left him to go with a Catholic priest. What a life!

Indirectly this marriage thing reminds me of my sister´s friend who has a cleaning lady. She is 41 years old and mother of eight children. She separated from her ex husband and he by law has to provide money. Now she has to go to court to enforce that legal measure because she gets very little money(roughly USD 75) and the guy is ,in her words, alcoholic. Marriage, clearly, is not for everyone.

I am not sure but Pope Benedict stated that Purgatory was no longer considered part of the Catholic teachings. However, maybe this Earth is Purgatory!

From what you are writing, I have the impression that your family has already a lady in mind for you. Maybe I am wrong but she too is eagerly waiting for you.

"THERE DEFINITELY IS A CONSPIRACY. They want everyone to know their place."
Yes,that´s true. Specially they want you to know your place.

"I think in most cases the Employer and the Family are hand in glove.They both almost coordinate to keep a man down. Anything which sticks out even slightly is mowed down mercilessly . Now,the young man has been sent to another section.Fine. He has been sent to the Purgatory  which is supposed to cleanse him from him sins.They believe I suppose,that I was 'corrupting' him. I used to tell him things like-"Don't give a damn about Promotions and the "Performance Related Pay". I think ,they would succeed too,he has a young wife and a kid. They have him by the balls."

Yes, you corrupt the minds. You are dangerous, a menace to established norms. Sinner, what´s what you are. You suffer from an "unhealthy attachment to sin, that is, telling people not to "give a damn about Promotions and the Performance Related Pay". You are marked to be nailed to a cross.

I am not sure but when Lucifer and his cohorts rebelled, he said in Latin "Non Serviam" or roughly, we will not serve or obey.

Title: Logicomix:To Herr Hentrich and Senor Raul
Post by: Holden on September 18, 2017, 06:02:14 am
To Herr Hentrich and Senor Raul,

1. Senor Raul,I have posted something about my nightmares in the "Why Sleep" section.

2. I don't know for sure if there is a lady waiting for  me for matrimony.If there is ,I am  afraid she is going to have to wait till the hell freezes over.

3. Herr Hentrich-your ideas and that of Herr Schopenhauer and Herr Kant are as important to me as oxygen. They make things clear to me which would otherwise have remained obscure .

4. As a child I was quite lonely,most of the times ,I played by myself. Most of the time I read comic books.Speaking of comic books.Here is one that might interest you.Its a comic book about Bertrand Russell, logic, math and madness.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/79/Logicomix_by_Apostolos_Doxiadis_et_al
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on September 18, 2017, 07:36:57 am
Holden,
That is the impression I get from your comments. A lady waiting for beloved Holden and of course the family would like to see the results nine months later. Two or three Holden Jrs.

Continue with your stories,mathematics, philosophy and literature. As you said more or less, your books are your babies.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 18, 2017, 12:39:43 pm
Yes, thank you Holden, I did read every page of Logicomix (http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_150575666009212&key=c7a018f99a67aaac33a35421e795cdf3&libId=j7qgmkae010008oe000DAktaq10om&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwhybother.freeboards.org%2Fgeneral-discussion%2Fthe-dark-side%2F30%2F&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fphilosophynow.org%2Fissues%2F79%2FLogicomix_by_Apostolos_Doxiadis_et_al&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwhybother.freeboards.org%2Fgeneral-discussion%2Fthe-dark-side%2Fmsg4250%2F%3Ftopicseen&title=The%20Dark%20Side%20(a%20profound%20concentration%20of%20negativity)&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fphilosophynow.org%2Fissues%2F79%2FLogicomix_by_Apostolos_Doxiadis_et_al).  In fact, the film you suggested, the man who knew infinity (the life story of Ramanujan), had me recalling this Logicomix - many of the same characters/people are in both.

I mentioned Logicomix here in the D-503 (http://whybother.freeboards.org/math-diary/d-503/msg2062/#msg2062) thread (Why Mathematics? forum) a year and a half ago, but then again, I never followed up or reported much about it. 

I am glad you found it on your own anyway. 

At least we don't have to deal with the politics of Academia.  There are some real advantages to living in the zone of the untouchable deadbeat underclass, that's for sure.
Title: On Asceticism and Asperger's
Post by: Holden on September 19, 2017, 04:10:33 am
1.Is our quest not remarkably similar? Though, of course, it is not in the academic arena.
Sometimes the cognition of our plight overwhelms me completely and all I can focus on is on keeping my head from bursting.

2.But there are moments, when I do rather like toying with maths.Perhaps a psychiatrist would diagnose me with Asperger's, which I am told "is a developmental disorder characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, along with restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests."

3.What they call Asperger's was called Asceticism once.

4.Kant tell me that what I see around me is, in the final analysis,not real at all. And that which I cannot "see" is the most real thing in the entire universe.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 19, 2017, 10:06:30 am
Have you been reading Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus?

The reason I ask is, well, I notice your use of numbering a sequence of statements.

I recall the effect reading that had on me.  I begain numbering every single statement I made in my journal, even with decimal places.  It became a real hinderance and I would never be able to keep track of my current flurry of notes with such a strategy.

It is useful here though.   If my posts are overwhelmingly chaotic for you, I can try to order them a little using this Wittgensteinian tactic.  I notice most text books use a similar method for organizing the subject matter.


Title: To Senor Raul: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: Holden on September 21, 2017, 04:16:58 am
Senor Raul,

You wrote somedays back,something like this from "True Detective":
 I tell myself I bear witness, but the real answer is that it's obviously my programming, and I lack the constitution for suicide

That that is really appropriate in my case. Very,very appropriate.

Keep well.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: raul on September 21, 2017, 02:34:44 pm
Holden,
Yes,that is what Rust Cohle said in one scene. I do not understand the sentence "to bear witness". I mean to bear witness, what for?

As for suicide, it is estimated that 30,000 people kill themselves each year. However, the actual figure is likely much higher. The World Health Organization estimates that almost a million people around the globe take their lives each year, The same organization also estimates that 10 to 20 million people attempt suicide each year.
I suppose for many bearing witness is no longer an option.

We,humans are just like tissues to be used, specially for ugly purposes and then discarded. Yes, life is evil.

"W.H. Auden,September 1, 1939,”
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done Do evil in return

Take care of yourself, take of your books and your computer. I suppose you store them in a safe place,
You see, your books and your computer might be used as "evidence" for your "deviant" behavior.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: Holden on September 22, 2017, 10:56:10 am
Am I surprised with the figures? Yes. They are way too low. I would have expected a far bigger number. How is it possible to live on this planet for one day, let all a life time,I cannot possibly conceive. They think it is all so beautiful,so wonderful. They breathe,they orgasm.They party.
I am afraid the party is about to get over- and then what?

Even creature groans in pain but only one in a million has compassion in his heart. Hatred is far more common. They want to redesign the society ,rewire the human being in line with REASON. Well, human reason ,being what it is, takes us to only one place:The Slaughter House.
https://youtu.be/3sFnVs--D2I
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 26, 2017, 10:28:03 am
Unamuno's assessment originates from his conviction that man is radically alone and without a clue, conditions we can do nothing to remedy.  The uncertainty that taints all of our actions is the source of the free floating anxiety that always haunts us.  Doubt and anguish, in fact, are the foundations of Unamuno's philosophy.  Religion will not remedy our obsession for absolutes because it cannot be rationally justified, and reason only guides us to skepticism and ultimately despair.

The weeping does nothing.  Hopelessness and despair are the conditions of life.  Given these conditions, it is best to immerse oneself in difficulties to temporarily escape the paralyzing meaningless of existence.
  ~ Alan R. Pratt writing about Miguel de Unamuno

The universe is unjust.  The secret of happiness is to face the fact that the world is horrible, horrible, horrible ... you must feel it deeply and not brush it aside. ~ Bertrand Russell  The Passionate Sceptic

Many people would sooner die than think.  In fact they do.  Thinking About Thinking


Academic philosophers, ever since the time of Parmenides, have believed that the world is a unity.... The most fundamental of my intellectual beliefs is that this is rubbish.  I think the universe is all spots and jumps, without unity, without continuity, without coherence or orderliness or any of the other properties that governesses love .... it consists of events, short, small and haphazard.  Order, unity, and continuity are human inventions, just as truly as our catalogues and encyclopedias.     Autobiography

Few people can be happy unless they hate some other person, nation or creed.   Attrib.

Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 26, 2017, 10:52:27 am
I have the true feeling of myself only when I am unbearably unhappy.  ~ Franz Kafka  Diaries

It is not true that life is one damn thing after the other ---- it's one damn thing over and over.  ~ Edna St. Vincent Millay

It is not true that suffering ennobles the character; ... it makes men petty and vindictive.  ~  W. Somerset Maugham   The Moon and the Sixpence

What mean and cruel things men do for the love of God.  A Writer's Notebook

For life is at the start a chaos in whih one is lost.  The individual suspects this, but he is frightened of finding himself face to face with this terrible reality, and tries to cover it over with a curtain of fantasy, where everything is clear.  It does not worry him that his ideas are not true; he uses them as trenches for the defense of his existence, as scarecrows to frighten away reality.  ~ Jose Ortega y Gasset  The Revolt of the Masses

Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 26, 2017, 11:04:20 am
The basic fact about human existence is not that it is a tragedy, but that it is a bore.

Man's natural instinct is never toward what is sound and true; it is toward what is specious and false.


[def specious -  Presenting a pleasing appearance; pleasing in form or look; showy.]


What a cruel and idiotic world we live in!

My notion is that all the larger human problems are insoluble, and that life is quite meaningless --- a spectacle without purpose of moral. I detest all efforts to read a moral into it.


H.L. Mencken
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hell is oneself;
Hell is alone, the other figures in it merely projections.  There is nothing to escape from and nothing to escape to.  One is always alone.
    ~ T.S. Eliot   The Cocktail party

Human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.
   Four Quarters

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dada smells of nothing, it is nothing,
nothing, nothing.
It is like your hopes: nothing
like your paradise: nothing
like your idols: nothing
like your politicians: nothing
like your heros: nothing
like your artists: nothing
like your religions: nothing
   ~ Francis Picabia, "Dada" Artnews 1921
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He belongs to those whose fate it is to live the whole riddle of human destiny heightened to the pitch of a personal torture, a personal hell.  ~  Hermann Hesse Steppenwolf

All interpretations, all psychology, all attempts to make things comprehensible, require the medium of theories, mythologies and lies.


"Should we be mindful of dreams?" Joseph asked.
"Can we interpret them?"
The Master looked into his eyes and said tersely: "We should be mindful of everything, for we can interpret everything."   
Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: Holden on September 27, 2017, 04:03:34 am
I do feel grateful every night knowing that one more day has gone by.The day usually takes its toll before it is over but at least it is over.The amount of time I still need to be alive on this planet has got reduced a tiny bit.
Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on September 27, 2017, 10:53:36 am
You sound like a man serving a prison sentence.

While having my hair shaved off my dome yesterday, the woman said she did not understand when women expressed a desire to be young again.  I agreed, stating that I remember adolescence and early adulthood consisting of one hard lesson after another (the school of hard knocks?).   I then made the analogy that someone expressing this desire to be young again sounds as absurd as an ex-convict wanting to serve his prison sentence again, starting from the day of his arrest.    ::)

Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: Holden on September 28, 2017, 04:54:20 am
You remember what Schopenhauer once wrote to Goethe in a letter mentioned in his biography-he wrote something to this effect-unlike you, I am not a man of the world. What matters to me is my philosophy. What becomes of me, personally, is of very little significance, what is important is that I should be able to comprehend the world philosophically.
I sound like a prisoner because I am one.
I really think that most parents think of their babies are cuddly toys. If only they could imagine that one day that cuddly toy will grow big and will be shred to pieces by the others,then perhaps they would think twice before having a baby.
This thought came to me with surprising clarity today-my pain,my misery,though profound and intense, is still finite-so long as I make sure that I do not reproduce.It is only a matter of getting rid of time. I don’t think I want to commit suicide. But I do want this misery to end with my demise.
So,here is the deal,I only need to somehow get though these years of earthly existence and then I would be through ,for good.
At present I have an office job, if required,that is,if I am fired in the near future then I can take up a menial job. I mean,unlike,my colleagues,I am not obese and quite capable of working physically.
Of course if that were to happen then my parents and relatives would go crazy but I think now I am beyond the point of giving a damn.
I have been thinking about how you lost your job in the park. Even if the circumstances were a bit different I do not think that you would have been able to carry on with it for much longer-you are much too sincere and honest for that. Something very similar is happening with me. They are setting traps to get rid of me.What of it? It would take them,at the very least, a good few months to be able to do that.In the meantime,I can make some more money-it will stand me in good stead in the future.
We will see what happens-why so much strife? I only need to somehow kill time,some years and then the nature itself will set this prisoner free.


Title: Re: The Dark Side (a profound concentration of negativity)
Post by: The Indignant One on May 12, 2021, 07:13:51 pm
In Huxley's Brave New World, "the Savage" had one demand:  the right to be unhappy.