Author Topic: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels  (Read 557 times)

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raul

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Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« on: March 24, 2018, 04:22:20 pm »
For suicide’ ‘formerly the enviable privilege of the upper classes, has become fashionable among the English workers, and numbers of the poor kill themselves to avoid the misery from which they see no other means of escape.

Taken from Author Marzio Barbigli

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2021, 06:12:12 am »
This idea continually presents itself whenever the will is thrwarted.  I think I may reread Alverez's The Savage God.

In the meantime, I did find Farewell to the World: A History of Suicide by Marzio Barbagli at Library Genesis

Thanks Raul.

There is a review of Barbagli's book: Putting an End to It All: Understanding Suicide.  The essay explains how Barbagli's approach differs from Durkheim's.

Quote
Farewell to the World begins by breaking down what Barbagli considers to be the flaws in Durkheim’s original theory of suicide. In brief, Durkheim held that all suicides fall into one of four categories: egoistic, altruistic, anomic, and fatalistic. All four types of suicide, according to Durkheim, were ultimately caused by a lack of social regulation and integration. In other words, suicide came about as a result of pathology, a fatal mismatch between an individual and environment. When Durkheim conducted his study of suicide toward the end of the 19th century, he was responding to a very particular set of cultural concerns. Europe had recently seen a sharp rise in voluntary deaths, leading many observers to fear for the welfare of society as a whole. Durkheim had personal motives as well: he wanted to legitimize sociology as an academic discipline. “The first led him to view suicide as a symptom of the ills of society,” Barbagli writes, “the second to explain it using only (some) sociological categories and to ignore the contribution of other human sciences.”

Unsatisfied with Durkheim’s pathology-based theory, Barbagli argues that the broader culture that surrounds an individual has more of an effect on their decision to commit suicide than any other factor. It’s not those who are mismatched to their cultures who commit suicide; it’s those who fit right in. In particular, Barbagli argues, Durkheim’s theory does not explain why, “over the past forty years, thousands of people … have sacrificed themselves for a collective cause, to help their own people and to fight their enemies.” To prove this point, he takes on the enormous task of sifting through the entire recorded history of humanity in order to examine changing cultural attitudes to suicide. Claiming that “social integration and regulation are … neither the only nor the most important causes of changing suicide rates over time and space,” he all but eliminates anomic suicide and fatalistic suicide from Durkheim’s original schema and adds two new categories: aggressive suicide and suicide as a weapon.

As might be expected from the addition of these categories, Barbagli focuses heavily on the rise of the suicide bomber. He began his research on Farewell to the World in 2001, shortly after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, and the ensuing media attention to the culture of Islamic jihad has clearly influenced his research. It is in discussing suicide bombers that Barbagli is at his most thorough.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 06:19:47 am by Kaspar Hauser »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2021, 07:18:50 pm »
I am rereading The Savage God for the first time since around 1996.   I am discovering where I may have gotten some of my ideas.  Schopenhauer would have loved this book.

The readers of this message board who are drawn to the antinatalistic spirit of our contributors might be interested in researching the Tasmanian aborigines (of Australia).

They felt tthat being hunted down like kangaroos (for sport) by the "white settlers" was intolerable, so they proudly committed suicide as a "race" by refusing to breed.   

Fucking awesome, no?

Note:  I am printing out the thoughtful message posted by Holden as I am not really in the mood to sit at the computer.   I am not so much restless as claustrophobic.  I wish to be outdoors drinking some cool water, feeling whatever breezes I might be blessed with.   My female squirrel friend can tell when I am depressed, and she seems to be in the mood to make me laugh by jumping around like a crazy idiot.   She makes me laugh.

I will definitely be staying in touch as I have suddenly rediscovered (through desperation) my love for good literature.
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2021, 02:53:52 am »
I think, then,I would go a place, which is rather secluded.
A place with dancing squirrels ,but, not draconian sociopaths.



(Illustration by Alireza Karimi Moghaddam.)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 05:37:25 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2022, 06:38:30 am »
Quote
For suicide’ ‘formerly the enviable privilege of the upper classes, has become fashionable among the English workers, and numbers of the poor kill themselves to avoid the misery from which they see no other means of escape.

Taken from Author Marzio Barbigli

I can see why ... I feel it, myself.

A look at Dirty Jersey:  Suicide rates for NJ’s Black teens point to treatment disparities

Suicide is already the second leading cause of death in New Jersey for young Black men and women ages 15 to 24, English said. And those rates are likely to increase after the pandemic ends.

In 2018, a national study said Black children between the ages of five and 12 were twice as likely to die by suicide than white children in the same age bracket. For Black children, racial inequities and intergenerational trauma are driving forces in suicide risk, according to New Jersey experts.

It is the need for approval that must be done away with.  It is important not to give a **** about "approval" ... So tired of being "judged" myself, and I am neither a youth nor a Black man. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2022, 07:44:10 am by Broken Spirit »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2022, 02:00:28 pm »
I am sorry that you are experiencing a great deal of anguish, When I am amongst people I am always judged.That is why I embrace seclusion to as large an extent as possible.



Mr. Silenus, if memory serves, I think mentioned this book many moons ago and I have been looking into it and I would say it is a very good book indeed.
I do not believe there is such a thing as “the arc of History”.The phrase reminds me of the Hegelian ideas.I’d rather embrace disenchantment than believe in something which is hollow and false.
Please do be careful- most people aren’t as noble as you are and might try to take undue advantage.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 12:56:01 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2023, 03:03:24 pm »
When we feel we’ve been done wrong, we want resolution. The size or type of infraction may not matter. We want to know who is guilty of the offense, or, if we know who the culprit is, we want to know why they did it.

The problem is that one may feel like this resolution is necessary to move forward.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 04:00:32 pm by Kaspar Hauser »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2023, 02:38:42 am »
Please remember:You are the man who comprehends "The World as Will & Representation" better than any man alive.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Holden

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2023, 07:03:30 am »
If you could, please look into this book:

image processing service


By Andy Wimbush
« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 01:30:10 pm by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

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Beckett's Quietism
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2023, 07:05:30 pm »
There is an article I wish to look into when I have time that is related to Beckett and Quietism.  It mentions The Imitation of Christ, by Thomas a' Kempis, Schopenhauer, Dostoevsky.   Supposedly, Schopenhaer embraced it.  I will keep a look out for the book on Beckett's Quietism.

https://aeon.co/essays/how-samuel-beckett-sought-salvation-in-the-midst-of-suffering

Quote
MacGreevy therefore wisely suggested that Beckett could read The Imitation of Christ in a secular manner, perhaps by substituting the objectionable word ‘God’ with terms such as ‘goodness’ or ‘disinterestedness’.

Beckett wrote back to say that he was grateful for MacGreevy’s concern, but pointing out that he had actually read the book some years ago, and didn’t find it especially helpful:

    All I ever got from the Imitation went to confirm & reinforce my own way of living, a way of living that tried to be a solution & failed. I found quantities of phrases like qui melius scit pati, majorem tenebit pacem [he who knows how to suffer well shall find the most peace], or Nolle consolari ab aliqua creatura magnae puritatis signum est [to refuse comfort from any creature is a sign of great faith], or the lovely per viam pacis, ad patriam perpetuae claritatis [by the way of peace to the country of everlasting clearness] that seemed to be made for me and which I have never forgotten. Am[on]g many others. But they all conduced to the isolationism that was not to prove very splendid. What is one to make of ‘seldom we come home without hurting of conscience’ and ‘the glad going out & sorrowful coming home’ and ‘be ye sorry in your chambers’ but a quietism of the sparrow alone upon the housetop & the solitary bird under the eaves? An abject self-referring quietism indeed.

This letter shows that Beckett was drawn to the promise of spiritual release: the Latin phrases he cites all describe a kind of transcendent peace, a peace that is found by going into suffering rather than resisting or shying away from it. But Beckett also acknowledges the dangers of such unearthly priorities. The Imitation of Christ, he says, promotes ‘isolationism’. Don’t go out, it says. Remain in your cell. Shun the company of others. Beckett then proceeds to explain to MacGreevy it was precisely this aloofness and distance from other people that caused his panic attacks to worsen in the first place.

Beckett’s word for the attitude that he finds in The Imitation is ‘quietism’, a term that crops up in several of his letters and notebooks from the 1930s. And it seems from this letter that he saw quietism as both the cause of his affliction and its unforthcoming solution. It is, as one of his later novels says about religion, both ‘poison and antidote’.

While he was no closer to a cure for his anxiety attacks, Beckett had begun to see that his personal problems might nevertheless be useful for his growth as a writer. In a diary entry from 1937, he confessed his hope that he might be able to put his suffering to artistic ends and ‘turn this dereliction, profoundly felt, into literature’. Quietism, it turned out, provided a means to do so.

Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

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Re: Words on Suicide (So Long, Suckers!) haHA
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2023, 04:24:54 pm »
Quote from: I
When we feel we’ve been done wrong, we want resolution. The size or type of infraction may not matter. We want to know who is guilty of the offense, or, if we know who the culprit is, we want to know why they did it.


What if we never know the details of how our destruction by "the social order" has taken place (or continues to take place)?

Didn't Arthur Schopenhauer, a master at how to navigate through hateful rascals and mean-spirited mockers [DEVILS, Archons, Tormentors-in-Human-Form], inform us that we are better off NOT KNOWING what people think of us, or how they feel about us?   If there are conspirators who have hated on me to the extent to bring havoc and devastation to my personal life, then it is best I remain aware of it.

These crises offer brutal insight into who our friends and enemies are.  We may not want to face that, quite often, "Nothing that is so, is so."

We may not have to handle the truth.

Wouldn't that be a great relief for all sentient social organisms, that it is enough for us to suffer the experiences our Fate encounters without having to make some sense of it, as though there were anything like ethics or justice in the midst of such cosmic mayhem.

Here I am talking about actually being done wrong, not merely talked about, but conspired against.   How does one resolve having been wronged when one has been painted as the "Original Problem." ?   These are some kind of "psychological warfare tactics."   

Do you suppose that individuals are systematically "broken," through social degradations and other "psychologically barbaric" and inhumane customs?


Cioran expressed the idea that IF a conscious symbol-using creature could make meaningful marks on paper which expressed (articulated, verbalized) psychological distress and emotional agony, that the entire process of EXPERIENCING the traumatizing emotions becomes "more bearable."

So, there could be some benefit or psychological relief when this subject experiencing this Lifeworld is able to see clearly the villains (archons, Devils-in-Human_Form, Mind Parasites) in the backgrounds of our lives wreaking havoc.

All we can do then to further to release our anger and relieve our frustrations is to seek REVENGE.

And yet!    Living well is the best revenge.  What if by "living well" we meant "protecting our psyches from harmful semantic reactions?   By "living well," meaning "not allowing the plague of hatred to steal any joy you might muster from your meager existence!"

The best revenge might be to laugh a mad kind of laughter, a sardonic howling at the cosmic stupidity of our Tormentors!   

As you, Holden, once said, "So long, suckers!"

Quote from: Holden
Quote from: Schopenhauer
In the hour of death, the decision is made whether a man falls back to the womb of nature, or else no longer belongs to her but we lack imagination, concept and word for this opposite, just because all these are taken from the objectification of the will.  However, the death of the individual is in each case the unweariedly repeated question of nature to the will-to-live:"Have you had enough?  Do you wish to escape from me"?

I know that you sometimes think that you are Schopenhauer redux.That because you have similar philosophy and ,because you are suffering,Schopenhauer (his "will-to-live") is also still suffering.

Have you ever considered the possibility that while your "will-to-live"& that of Schopenhauer's may be of similar grade,they may not be the same? That Schopenhauer,when he died said he has had ENOUGH! and that he has escape nature and that your "will -to-live", followed by Gary's,Karl's and mine are also walking down the same path ,the path which the Buddha's "will-to-live" once trod?

« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 04:26:26 pm by Kaspar Hauser »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2023, 02:06:39 pm »
I'll have to catch it on a phone sometime, as I have not brought headphones to the library.  There are time constraints in my Lebenswelt which would make viewing a video quite distracting (to me) while paying attention to tasks at hand.

Usually I can allow myself to focus on one thing, or possibly three.

All I can do is what any other member of this board does.  We endure each pulse.  I race my appetite to the "soup-kitchen" each night for my one-time meal of the day - but today is Saturday, so the people from India fed "the People" at a local church by the library.

So, the Starving Philosopher in Rags eats twice today.  What joy!  What mirth!
A woman-with-compassion helped me get some smokes with enough left for me to clean my clothes at a laundromat - small load, wash/dry, about five bucks.

Smokes?  At least twice that.  Poor Vincent Van Gogh would have drunk himself into a stupor here, Down and Out on the Jersey Shore.

The other big decision of the day (in the Life (of this incarnation) of Kaspar Hauser) is whether to get sugar and water, or just water.  I believe I only have enough for a couple gallons of water ($4).  I do not think 5 lbs sugar for $5 is worth sacrificing water, especially knowing the very little bit of water I actually drink.  Water is a healthy investment.

The sugar gets siphoned by nerve neighbors, some of who are, along with me, surviving on boxes of cereal handed out by same church which feeds the warm meal on Saturdays.

The sugar would help entice me to eat the cereal and oatmeal, but I do not require or use it in the extra-strong coffee I am prone to be drinking throughout the day and night.

Fortunately I can still pick up a brick of Cafe Bustelo for $5, a little less if I get 2 when there is a deal.

Thank you for being there to receive these "reports from the Abyss."   :D


Also, I found this tid-bit about Quietism:  Quietism is a system of religious mysticism with its roots in Hinduism and Buddhism but which has also been promoted at times by individuals within the Roman Catholic Church.

Quietism teaches that spiritual peace and even perfection can be achieved through the contemplation of God and things divine.

The practitioner of quietism seeks to subdue the will and become totally passive, spiritually. Quietism was promoted as a Catholic mode of worship in parts of Western Europe during the late 1600s but was declared a heresy by Pope Innocent XI in 1687.

Quietism turns one’s spirituality inward, favoring silent contemplation, stillness, and passiveness over positive action, singing, praying out loud, etc., so it would be naturally appealing to monks, religious hermits, and other ascetics. The aim of quietism is to “quiet” the soul so that it can become one with God and eventually achieve a sinless state.



Hey, I think I may have something funny to say.   I get it that Schopenhauer had an interest in quietism.  Yes, maybe as a teen I was drawn to such mysticism myself; but - from the looks of my records of my actual behavior in this world, I might be considered somewhat of a Loudist.

I couldn't resist the corn-ball old-man humor.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2023, 02:35:21 pm by Kaspar Hauser »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2023, 02:43:41 pm »

Conard’s Winnie Verloc says life does not bear looking into.I concur.Joyce went blind. His daughter Lucia went mad. Because of her, Joyce and Beckett had a very big falling out.
Beckett as a young man, while staying in France, had taken to the bottle . The bottle might very well have stopped him from doing away with himself during that phase of his life.

He was paid to write a review of Proust’s work and while going though his books he realised that the kind of flowery language that Proust employs,often leads one away, and not closer to the truth.

He preferred Keats’ weariness-”Take into the air my quiet breath”.
Speaking of Proust, I do experience the “Madeleine Moment” from time to time. But unlike him, what I experience is anti-nostalgia,not a  desire to go back to the past, but impotent wish that the past had never occurred in the first place.

From Beckett’s diary:
“This life is terrible and I don’t understand how it can be endured.That most foul malady-scandal.Semi-obscene entirely contemptible tittle-tattle.

How can one write here when every day vulgarizes one’s hostility and turns anger into irritation and petulance.”

As regards,his Quietism. I think Schopenhauer certainly left a mark on his world-view.Religion of any kind gets dumbed -down very easily. For the masses, Catholicism is about attending the weekly mass and not about the metaphor it uses to speak of suffering. Hinduism is about visiting the temple and offering a coconut to the deity,not about the Upanishads that Schopenhauer so admired.

I don’t think Schopenhauer would have cared to join “organized Buddhism”.

Stay safe.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Holden

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Re: Words on Suicide by Friedrich Engels
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2023, 07:34:51 am »
‘The inevitable vulgarisation leaves one exhausted and disgusted’.-Beckett
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.