Author Topic: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)  (Read 786 times)

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Holden

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The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« on: November 18, 2017, 05:58:21 am »
Senor Raul,
I have been thinking for some time about how I could assist you in getting introduced to The World as Will and Representation ,the chief work of Schopenhauer.
The closest thing to having a purpose in my life is the propagation of Schopenhauerian-Hentrichian philosophy.So, I got a brain wave today-maybe I could post here a brief paraphrase of WWR for you-brief and yet covering as many substantial points as possible. That way you would be able to get the gist of it & I’d certainly love to write these posts-the way I have grasped WWR.
What do you think of the idea?
While I know that you could easily get a summary of the book at many places, but here,we could also have a dialogue about it.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

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raul

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2017, 07:44:41 am »
Holden,
I thank you for your suggestion. You have no obligation to introduce me to the chief work of Schopenhauer. If you decide to do that, let me tell you that you have to explain like I am a five-year old. I read books,true, but now I have much difficulty in retention.

Stay well and rike your bike safely.

Holden

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The World as Will and Representation:Book I
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2017, 11:19:39 am »
Senor Raul,

WWR was divided into four books by Schopenhauer.We'll start will Book I. If I go wrong somewhere I am sure Herr Hentrich would set the matter right.

Book I: The world of which we can have knowledge is a world of appearances :we cannot know anything of things in themselves. This is what is meant by saying ,as Schopenhauer does at the outset,that "The world is my representation". This part of his philosophy is based squarely,though with some divergences,on Kant's.Schopenhauer assures us that he does not want to deny that there is a real empirical world composed of spatio-temporal objects.But he insists that this world is exhausted by what appears as object before the representing subject.For Schopenhauer,all objects presuppose some subject,and in fact he seems to equate being an object with being an object for some subject.All modes of connectedness among objects in the empirical world are accordingly equated with modes of connectedness among our representations.

A great deal here depends on the nature of the subject to which the world ("as representation") is tied and for Schopenhauer the subject of representation is decidedly not equated with any one individual situated within the empirical world.Rather,it is merely the necessary correlate of all objects,and as such never an object itself.This is connected with his claim that the subject of representations is unknowable ,like an eye that cannot see itself.So far,the self is something of a riddle to itself,but Schopenhauer is content for the moment that it should remain so ,the riddle being solved only later through the realisation that our primary role in the world is not as mere representers of it.The world ,too, he presents as a riddle ,in the sense that we can never know the thing in itself,but only a set of representations.Having established the central distinctions between representation and thing in itself,and between subject and object,Schopenhauer next proposes to solve both riddles in one highly original stroke in Book II.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Nation of One

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2017, 12:19:37 pm »
While helping my nephew clean some apartments for his Dad back in the summer of 1998, I guess he was about 16.  He says that he had a great revelation in understanding Schopenhauer's main idea, the idea he got from Kant, when I pointed out how Schopenhauer phrased something in a simple manner.   

He said that we do not feel the earth, but experience a hand touching the earth, that we do not see the sunlight, but experience the eyes perception of what the light is reflecting on. 

I apologize if this post is rushed, but I am on the way out the door, and I just checked in here before leaving.

I'm sure Holden is aware of where Schopenahuer states this, so maybe he will want to clarify it as I am writing this in a rushed manner.

This is in reference to Book I of WWRv1
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

raul

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2017, 01:58:17 pm »
Holden,
Thank you for your response. I read and read your explanation about WWR.

So "The world of which we can have knowledge is a world of appearances :we cannot know anything of things in themselves."
I can understand this statement with no problem. 

"The subject of representations is unknowable ,like an eye that cannot see itself.So far,the self is something of a riddle to itself"
Yes, what a riddle, Holden!

"The world ,too, he presents as a riddle ,in the sense that we can never know the thing in itself,but only a set of representations."
Yes, this is comprehensible.

Once again, stay well.

raul

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2017, 02:19:46 pm »
Hentrich,
"He said that we do not feel the earth, but experience a hand touching the earth, that we do not see the sunlight, but experience the eyes perception of what the light is reflecting on."
So, this life we are living now is only an appearance, an illusion. Well, a hellish illusion,
Not the real life. Is there such a thing as a real life?

Stay safe and drive safely.

Holden

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2017, 06:49:04 am »
What Herr Hentrich refers to in the above mentioned post of his is this:

It then becomes clear and certain that he knows no sun and no earth but only an eyes that sees the sun,a hand that feels an earth,that the world around him is there only as representation i.e. only in reference to another ,the representer,which is he himself.-Schopenhauer

Who is Schopenhauer talking about? He is talking not about any Tom,Dick or Harry but someone like Herr Hentrich, an individual who has brought into "reflective,abstract consciousness"the fact  that "the world is my representation",someone upon whom philosophical discernment has dawned.

What this philosophically discerning individual will realise is that he does not know an object such as the sun or the earth or even the table in front of him,he will realise that he knows nothing but his sensory organs such as the eye or the hand.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 06:58:50 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2017, 08:32:06 am »
Holden,
Thank you for your response. I appreciate both your response and Hentrich´s response.
Your explanation is much clear and enlightening. I suppose that philosophical discernment did not dawn upon me. I admit sadly this much truth.

So I do not " know an object such as the sun or the earth or even the table in front of me,I "will realise that I know nothing but my sensory organs such as the eye or the hand." Crystal clear as they say in American English.

But much worse than I thought. I am just a puppet where the world I see and live from the point of view of my body and our most intimate desire and up to the last corner of this universe is the painful manifestation of a cosmic and blind energy or force called "will" which always desires and always unsatisfied.

Stay well and ride your bike carefully.

Nation of One

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2017, 11:17:10 am »
Quote
What Herr Hentrich refers to in the above mentioned post of his is this:

It then becomes clear and certain that he knows no sun and no earth but only an eyes that sees the sun,a hand that feels an earth,that the world around him is there only as representation i.e. only in reference to another ,the representer,which is he himself.-Schopenhauer

That's the one, Holden.  Thanks.
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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The World as Will and Representation:Book II
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2017, 11:28:55 am »
Well, you are a very remarkable person,Senor,in fact, a genius.I need to write on the topic of genius.But that is another thread ,for another day.
Let's move on to Book II of WWR,for now:

We now discover that the thing in itself is ,after all, knowable ,but in a special way.It is important first of all to realise that because nothing beyond the realm of empirical represenations can partake in spatial or temporal properties or relations,there can be no distinct individuals beyond that realm.There is therefore just one undivided thing in itself,which Schopenhauer now argues to be the will.He argues that there is one will which underlies the whole world and manifests itself in the multiplicity of things we can come to know in experience.His argument begins from a point about self-knowledge.He first establishes that there is one kind of knowledge that must be sharply differentiated from our knowledge of objects,and which he hopes will provide the “key” to an otherwise impregnable reality beyond the world as representation.This key is to be found in our knowledge of our own willed actions,which is “immediate” in a unique way:we do not observe ourselves acting and infer from this what we will,rather,we know what we will because our action itself expresses our will.Willing is acting.He denies any causal connection between act of will and bodily movement ,arguing that there is no inner or purely mental act of will preceding an action ,no act of will at all except the action itself,which is the will expressed in bodily movement.Subjects of will are thus embodied.My immediate access to my willing gives me special kind of knowledge of an event (my action) and an object(my body) within the empirical world.Action situates the subject.But it also provides us with access to the underlying thing in itself ,in ourselves.Given this,the heart of the great vision ,the rest of Schopenhauer’s thought falls quite naturally into place.

(Book II to be continued- Lord willing and the creek don't rise).
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2017, 01:34:53 pm »
Holden,
Thank you for your comment. No. I am not a remarkable person. A remarkable person, in my opinion, would read Dr.Schopenhauer´s masterpiece and try to think clearly and carefully. After all to think is not illegal. Not yet.

More than twenty years ago one of my uncles complained because I had no girlfriend.
So I remember Electric Light Orchestra, The Diary of Horace Wimp and these lyrics:

Horace Wimp, this is your life,
Go out and find yourself a wife.
Make a stand and be a man,
And you will have a great life plan.

If one really internalizes these words, once can continue thinking that one´s life is not a fraud or scam.
Faith is powerful. Prince Dracula did not escape from the cross and the holy water; he only escaped from what
they symbolized.

This Earth is an arid planet and on this planet a dust called man proliferates. Only a few are not blinded by this dust.

Once again, thank you and stay safe.

Holden

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Re: The World as Will and Representation-Book II(Part II)
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2017, 08:12:57 am »
Senor Raul,

Who is Dracula? One of the the first fictional vampires .He represents a being who feeds on the blood of human beings.That is how he manages to prolong his own life. Dracula,in a way, is the Will to Live.That is why "Dracula" is afraid of the "Cross".

What does the Cross symbolise? Complete Renunciation.


Anyway, back to WWR Book II: We are not (as Book I may have suggested) passive, disembodied spectators of the world of objects,but essentially embodied and active. The will in us is primary,not  the intellect.This one thought is extremely fruitful for Schopenhauer,and he uses it to mount a sustained attack on the notion of the purely rational and self-transparent subject of perspectiveless knowledge.The human body ,not only in its actions but in all its functions and in its very growth and formation ,is a manifestation of will.Thus,Book II presents us with an extraordinary panoramic view of the whole world as springing into empirical object-hood out of one and the same essence,the all-permeating,unconscious striving force.In us,the will is a primary element which can also be called the "will to life",an urge both to go on living and to produce new life,to reproduce.It exhibits itself especially strongly in the form of sexual desire ,but it is also in evidence in a number of ways throughout our life,interfering constantly with the workings of the fragile self-conscious intellect with which philosophers are wont to equate the self.Intellect and will must be clearly distinguished."I" can be seen as composed of the two,but the will in many respects is the dominant partner. In fact, since it is conditional on the growth of an organism complete with brain and nervous system,the intellect is as much a natural manifestation of the will as anything else in organic nature.This is how ,in us,the will becomes conscious of itself.

(Book II to be continued)
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 12:46:13 pm »
Holden,
Yes, Dracula is a fictional character but let me tell you I met some human vampires who said they were my friends and all they did was suck my energy. And clearly these problem creatures,also suffering in this vale of tears, prolonged their lives.

You say the cross symbolizes renunciation. Renunciation is extremely difficult for, us, human creatures.

So once again I undestand that everything we perceive is perception or representation. In German it is Vorstellung.
"The world is my representation."

The object perceived(material reality) and and the subject that perceives(conscience) are correlates of each other. The one goes with the other. This is built in our human structure.

So when we come to this world as human beings we come with glasses through which we see the world and withouth them we are not able to see anything.
If we were able to remove our glasses, no vision would be possible.

"The human body ,not only in its actions but in all its functions and in its very growth and formation ,is a manifestation of will."
Very clear.

"I" is composed of intellect and will but the will is the dominant factor. Our brain and nervous system are hosts of this will. Only vessels.
And the will to life manifests in the sexual desire, to continue reproducing the species and this will not life has no scruples, if I can use this word, toward the human vessels.

Once again I thank you for your patience.







Holden

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2017, 03:39:01 am »
Senor Raul,

Very sorry for the  delay,my computer has been acting up.Anyway,we continue with Book II:

In vividly drawn picture that Schopenhauer gives us,we are doomed to be tormented by powerful desires that we can neither control nor can we ever fully comprehend,and to swing like pendulums between anguish and tormenting boredom.The will is what,along with the rest of the greedy,self-devouring world ,we really are.He is thus unusual among philosophers in that he presents us with an ultimate reality which we are meant to abhor rather than wonder at or venerate.

Next:Book III-

He tells us that there are ways in which we can escape from the will.
(to be continued)

« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 03:46:45 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: The World as Will and Representation(To Senor Raul)
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2017, 05:57:46 am »
Holden,
Thank you again for sharing your words.

What a tragedy is to be a human being. Tormented by powerful desires beyond our control and understanding. All the philosophies and philosophers explaining the misery of the human predicament. We do not choose being but here we are. Playthings of this unsatiable and desiring force. Only a footnote in this universe.
I once read that Dr.Schopenhauer said that we needed to be compassionate. I tried to remember at least that every single person in this world is as valuable and important to themselves as I am to myself. However I have little compassion, very little indeed.

Thank you again and stay safe.