Author Topic: Merleau-Ponty  (Read 1433 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Holden

  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 3792
  • Hentrichian Philosophical Pessimist
Merleau-Ponty
« on: April 09, 2018, 08:57:25 pm »
Merleau-Ponty agreed that the most fundamental way in which we encounter entities, our “primary perception” of them, in the words of Merleau-Ponty, “is a non-thetic, pre-objective and pre-conscious experience” (Merleau-Ponty 1962: 242). For Merleau-Ponty, we have a “non-thetic” perception of something when it is not posed or placed squarely before us as an object for perception – that means “we have no express experience of it” (Merleau- Ponty 1962: 258). Something is “pre-objective” when it has a structure that resists articulation into a content that allows it to be grasped in thought – it is a “positive indeterminate which prevents the spatial, temporal and numerical wholes from becoming articulated into manageable, distinct and identifiable terms” (Merleau-Ponty 1962: 12).
Aim is “to return to that world which precedes knowledge, of which knowledge always speaks, and in relation to which every scientific schematization is an abstract and derivative sign-language, as is geography in relation to the country-side in which we have learnt beforehand what a forest, a prairie or a river is” (Merleau-Ponty 1962: ix).
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


Holden

  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 3792
  • Hentrichian Philosophical Pessimist
Ash Tray
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2018, 09:18:26 pm »
I understand the ashtray not by having ideas of it, but by knowing how to hold it, how to move it or move my hands relative to it, which requires that I be able to anticipate and respond to the ways it will show itself as I move myself around it. The ashtray gives itself to me when it reveals the unified sensory-motor significance that it has for my body. Any intellectual discoveries we make about the object are subsequent to, and dependent on, this manifestation of it.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Holden

  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 3792
  • Hentrichian Philosophical Pessimist
Re: Merleau-Ponty
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2018, 09:23:49 pm »
Merleau-Ponty’s argument that things are given to us in virtue of a sensory-motor meaning they possess, and therefore can be available to us without being fully available to thought. In an analogous way, Merleau-Ponty sees the world as given to us as a unity behind all our particular experiences of particular things. This unity is something that we grasp without having a mental representation or theory of it: “The world has its unity, although the mind may not have succeeded in inter-relating its facets and in integrating them into the conception of a geometrized projection.” The unity takes the form of a kind of style with which we can get in tune, but which we can’t reduce to an object for reflection: This unity is comparable with that of an individual whom I recognize because he is recognizable in an unchallengeably self-evident way, before I ever succeed in stating the formula governing his character, because he retains the same style in everything he says and does, even though he may change his place or his opinions. A style is a certain manner of dealing with situations, which I identify or understand in an individual or in a writer, by taking over that manner myself in a sort of imitative way, even though I may be quite unable to define it: and in any case a definition, correct though it may be, never provides an exact equivalent, and is never of interest to any but those who have already had the actual experience. I experience the unity of the world as I recognize a style.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Holden

  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 3792
  • Hentrichian Philosophical Pessimist
Re: Merleau-Ponty
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2018, 09:26:28 pm »
We understand the world by sensing the unity in the way that objects and activities are organized and presented. I grasp the style of an individual when I see, for instance, how her way of wearing her clothes is like her hairstyle and her interior decoration, but also how these suit the things she does and the places she goes, how they match the way she carries herself, talks, laughs, etc. A style is a recognizable way of being-in-the-world that, despite being recognizable, evades definition. Merleau- Ponty is suggesting that the world exists like a style – as something that organizes and unfolds the things we encounter. It is thus something we can get a sense or feel for without being able to conceptualize or even become fully aware of.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Kaspar Hauser

  • { }
  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 4300
  • Life teaches me not to want it.
    • What Now?
Re: Merleau-Ponty
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2018, 12:21:18 am »
I had been interested in Merleau-Ponty several years back, and I can see why his speculations would be of interest to you.

I have found though that my attention is limited, and that our time on this earth is quite limited as well.

I'm glad you are taking some notes for us.   

I understand that thinkers such as Merleau-Ponty and Edmund Husserl are worthy of attention.  I just don't seem to have an unlimited supply of attention, and so I have had to devote my limited mental powers to particular details of mathematics that may seem very boring, but give me a feeling of satisfaction.

There are a great deal of books by and about his philosophy at libgen.

It is no longer a matter of being limited by not being able to access the books.

Now it is a matter of being jealous of my own time and attention.

I no longer feel obligated to read everyone; but I do applaud your interest in Merleau-Ponty.  I have a difficult time just remembering how to spell his name!  E-A-U ... got it.

What do you think of the embodied mind?

It makes sense to me ... no body, no mind.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 09:18:40 am by Non Serviam »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 3792
  • Hentrichian Philosophical Pessimist
Re: Merleau-Ponty
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2018, 09:40:11 pm »
I think the mind is but a tool of the will.I have been deriving some satisfaction from my mathematical studies.People and social events stifle me.Mathematics in tendem with philosophy brings me a measure of relief.

Mathematics indeed is fascinating.I really wish I could understand more of it.I'd certainly try.


La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Kaspar Hauser

  • { }
  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 4300
  • Life teaches me not to want it.
    • What Now?
Re: Merleau-Ponty
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2019, 10:57:42 pm »
Quote from: Holden
I think the mind is but a tool of the will.I have been deriving some satisfaction from my mathematical studies.People and social events stifle me.Mathematics in tendem with philosophy brings me a measure of relief.

Yes, Holden, when the will is not agitated or stimulated, even the basic mechanical computations involved in algebraic manipulation does bring a definite species of relief and even contentment, albeit a negative relief - that is, sometimes the burdens of want, need, and desire are momentarily lifted.   It is not hyperbole when I claim that I am getting a more authentic education returning to the text that had me stumped in the last year of high school (Modern Introductory Analysis, c.1965/1984 at "Christian Brothers Academy" in Lincroft, New Jersey) than in the last two years at Rutgers University in New Brunswick.   It's another one of those "Nothing that is so, is so" phenomena.    So much time was wasted transporting to and from classes, running around like a goddamn hamster on one of those wheels in the cages.   

Our true education may occur outside these institutions made of brick, mortar, and MONEY.

I think that your interest in mathematics and philosophy is what is protecting your mind from the harmful abuse you may experience in the workplace.   For us, unlike the STEM-obsessed parents who whip their protege into shape, pressuring them to the point of suicide, we pursue mathematics in defiance of a world who has deemed us unworthy.   I think this is a key element that may give us an edge when it comes to enriching our inner lives through studying mathematics.  It's an act of defiance as oppossed to an act of obedience to the "demand for scientists and engineers".   
 
 As Peter Gabriel sang in Lay Your Hands On Me (1982):   "Reaction level's much too high - I can do without the stimuli ..."   I don't want to compete, and yet the whole damn system is rigged to have us all fighting like crabs in a bucket to see where we stand up against their metrics.    What a farce.   

At least I had this great music to get me through adolescence ...

lay your hands on me


The reason for this post is that I received a paper in my email from Academia concerning the phenomenology of natural time :  Merleau-Ponty and the Phenomenology of Natural Time  (direct link to download PDF file).

I remember your interest, and I was hoping that, with your particular insight, one day you might help me understand Merleau-Ponty on a deeper level.   One day ...

« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 11:52:15 pm by H »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Kaspar Hauser

  • { }
  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 4300
  • Life teaches me not to want it.
    • What Now?
Re: Merleau-Ponty
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2020, 10:29:37 pm »
From the third chapter, Schizophrenia and Common Sense:A Phenomenological Perspective by Valeria Bizzari, of the book,
Schizophrenia and Common Sense: Explaining the Relation Between Madness and Social Values
:


Quote from: Valeria Bizzari
Merleau-Ponty, hugely influenced by Husserl’s account of embodied experience,offers a significative reading of Husserlian phenomenology, according to which embodiment is not a contingent topic, but a fundamental theme. In Phenomenologyof Perception, he explicitly claims that “the body is a natural self” (Merleau-Ponty,1962, p. 206) and that existence itself amounts to an embodied link between the subject and the world.

At the end of the article:

Quote from: Valeria Bizzari
I argue for the importance of Embodiment too, in order to strengthen the sense of the essentially intersubjective self that seems to be lost in autism and schizophrenia. Another important result of the adoption of a phenomenological approach is that phenomenology could save the self from the process of depersonalization: in contrast to DSM approach, phenomenology could help in developing a qualitative analysis of mental illness, explaining psychiatric diseases as subjective and bodily disorders.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 04:31:08 pm by Sticks and Stones »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 3792
  • Hentrichian Philosophical Pessimist
Re: Merleau-Ponty
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2020, 09:56:50 am »
A couple of years ago when you first mentioned Husserl and Monleu-Ponty to me, I studied both the thinkers and I appreciate what they have to say.Schopenhauer is not just a great thinker but always a writer of immense literary prowess( maybe he inherited it from his mother).

Before meeting you I was an anti-Gort. But without the Weltanschauung ,the philosophical tool-kit that you have bestowed upon me I might have very easily been shred into pieces by them. I think my interest in mathematics which you rekindled is very much a part of that tool kit.

I have recently obtained some empirical evidence that I have indeed started to grasp the basics of mathematics,albeit my timing is still way off.

I have started reading Lila which is the sequel of the Zen and the Art of Motorcycle diaries.

 In 2011 or 2012 , I tried to read The World and Will and Representation, in my office of all places ,right after a tussle with my boss. However, the very first page proved to be beyond me-all the talk of Idea and Representation and what have you. It was not until I met you that I could fully grasp what Schopenhauer was saying.

P.S.: A strange secret-I read The Critique of Pure Reason after I had finished everything by Schopenhauer. I could comprehend it quite well,despite of its reputation as a dense work.
Maybe its because of the Indian heritage of mine.

Then again, I was born in the Brahmin community and quite a few people here look upon the members of the community as invaders, as aliens even now.

I found something interesting- you often describe yourself as Steppenwolf,that is , the Wolf of the Steppes.

According to this paper:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/09/190905145348.htm

"The finding that Brahmins often have more steppe ancestry than other groups in South Asia, controlling for other factors, provides a fascinating new argument in favor of a steppe origin for Indo-European languages in South Asia," said Reich.

Its strange!

Take care, Der Steppenwolf!
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 10:02:07 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Kaspar Hauser

  • { }
  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 4300
  • Life teaches me not to want it.
    • What Now?
Re: Merleau-Ponty
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2020, 12:14:45 pm »
I will study the article about South and Central Asian.   I will start a different thread --- let's see ... somewhere in Why Think? I suppose:   The Eurasian Grassland, The Steppe

I go to sleep feeling as though I have had enough of this life, and I wake up without much more enthusiasm, but I keep my plate full with old mathematics texts I am obsessed with, as well as the literature and articles pointed out to me by the few of you posting on this board.

I am excited that you are reading Robert M. Pirsig, especially LILA, in which he writes so subversively against the instituion of psychiatry, pointing out that sanity is defined by society, and that psychiatry polices the intellectual level of evolution.   Let me know what you think of it.


More from Valeria Bizzari (what a name!):

Quote from: Valeria Bizzari
We can practically observe the result of this embodied perspective in the analyses of certain psychoses, especially those that involve an intersubjective alienation: as a matter of fact, losing our corporeal and prereflective sense of self involves a disturbance in the understanding of others and, accordingly, a disruption of our so-called common sense, which usually provides an automatic comprehension of everyday situations connecting self and world through a basic familiarity and habituality. Following and emphasizing the thought of Giovanni Stanghellini, according to which common sense “can be represented as a network of beliefs (i.e. social knowledge) and as a basic individual attunement with the social world of an intuitive kind” (Stanghellini, 2006, p.14), the main thesis I am going to present in this paper is that the loss of the corporeal Self necessarily involves a loss in the sphere of common sense. A disembodiment of self implies the impairment of self-awareness, but also the loss of social attunement‑ : others become mere insignificant machines, and the world is perceived as an impersonal game regulated by impersonal rules. There is a shift from the first person perspective, typical of a living subject, to a third person approach through which the subject is detached from the world.

Usually, our perception and our “being in the world” are permeated by a bodily sense of Self: recent empirical studies have shown that this corporeal feeling is present from the first years of our life, like a primordial “sensus communis” ‑ that is the ground for abilities like proprioception, perception and emotion.

Quote from: Valeria Bizzari
In other words, the lived body corresponds in a certain way to our “common sense”, our pre-reflective knowhow, thanks to which we can move and act in the world and in the intersubjective environment (13)‑ . To quote Fuchs: “Common sense can be characterized as a self evident embeddedness in the world, in other words, as a fundamental connectedness.”

footnote 13:  This is very similar to Husserl’s passive synthesis and Merleau-Ponty’s operative intentionality.

Matthew Ratcliffe has developed this perspective, claiming the presence of “existential feelings”, i.e., structures of relationship between the body-subject and the world, such as feeling at home, a sense of belonging to this specific world, having a sense of reality and so on. According to him, these feelings share a lot of features with the tactile experiences, such as the dynamic structure and the link between predisposition and action. A disruption of these kinds of feelings could involve the loss of our ontological openness to the world. In this view, being part of the world involves a practical and pre-reflective sense of belonging to an experiential structure. As in the Merleau-Pontian phenomenology, the body seems to be the medium to which the subject owes its ability to perceive the world.

Quote from: Valeria Bizzari
Furthermore, we can claim that what is lost is very similar to the Husserlian natural attitude: “the prethematic and non-objectivating consciousness of the pre- giveness of the world” (Summa, 2012, p.194), which the subject usually experiences in the same way as other subjects and which corresponds to “what is taken for granted, prior to all scientific thought and all philosophical questioning” (Husserl, 1970, p. 110).

Losing these abilities necessarily involves what Blankenburg describes as a loss of natural self-evidence, or common sense. The reason behind this assumption is that this practical, embodied and embedded knowledge represents the ground of our being-in-the-world, of our prenderstanding of everyday situations, a condition that is disrupted in schizophrenia. The result is a fundamental alienation of common sense and intersubjectivity, and the loss of the basic sense of self and of being-with-others. As a matter of fact, we should notice that our sense of self is bound up with the sense of others, and for this reason the disembodiment of self and the disruption of intercorporeality mutually influence each other, losing the tacit attunement to the world and situations.

It is very interesting to note that in the loss of the corporeal self, we can register disruptions in several personal dimensions, the same dimensions that, according to Stanghellini and Ballerini, could be modified by the loss of common sense (Stanghellini, Ballerini, 2005).

Quote from: Valeria Bizzari
The result of these disturbances could be translated into a general withdrawal from reality which Bleuer describes as follows: “The [...] schizophrenics, who have no more contact with the outside world live in a world of their own. They have encased themselves with their desires and wishes [...]; they have cut themselves off as much as possible from any contact with the external world. This detachment from reality with the relative and absolute predominance of the inner life, we term autism.” (Bleuer, 1950, quoted in Parnas 2012, p. 1122). What is overlooked in Bleuer’s account, and what I would like to emphasize here, is the dramatic nature of a similar withdrawal that involves not only a sort of “discordance” between the schizophrenic world and intersubjective understanding, but also a detachment from general reality, an inability to immerse in the world and, accordingly, the “destructuration” of consciousness. This kind of isolation is synonymous with a lack of common sense, that is a loss of meaning and of naturalness that “has simply to do with living, how to behave yourself in order not to be pushed outside, outside society…It is not knowledge, it is prior to knowledge; it is something that every child is equipped with. It is these very simple things a human being has the need for, to carry on life, how to act, to be with other people, to know the rules of the game.” (Blankenburg 1988, quoted in Parnas, Bovet and Zahavi 2002, p. 133). In order to explain this lack of common sense, we need a phenomenological and holistic approach.

Another disorder of the embodied self belonging to the phenomenological tradition that has been recently analyzed by the author, and that could be helpful in our attempt to describe the importance of our corporeal self and of the tacit and implicit knowledge linked to it is melancholic depression: a strong condition of depression that often leads to suicidal thoughts.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 07:48:52 pm by Sticks and Stones »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Kaspar Hauser

  • { }
  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 4300
  • Life teaches me not to want it.
    • What Now?
Phenomenology is Remote from Common Sense
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2020, 07:46:28 pm »
An excerpt from Dead End (Chapter 8 ): A Strong Dose of Madness:

Phenomenology is a kind of trained introspection and self-observation. Our so-called “outer-perception” presents us with nothing that appears the way it really is. We are subject to some serious illusions with respect to rest, motion, figure, and size. All we know are the effects of these physical things on our sense organs.

Enter philosophical movements disguised as jokes or jokes disguised as philosophical movements. These are grim days indeed. Jokes are in high demand, but a few hearty laughs may shake us from our angst so that we might become more focused on the task at hand, whether it is sleeping, feeding, warming, or even contemplating our own death. I wish we could organize a movement to keep writers, scholars, and artists physically alive – to permit them to continue their work in this most difficult century. Studios could be organized where we form our own schools.

Dressed in old coats, chilled and hungry, we could become totally absorbed in discussions of literature, philosophy, comedy, wilderness survival, and “the end of history.” My “true” inner self is different from the self that appears in conversations with others. I need writing to supplement the misleading signs of my speech. In other words, in my speech and action I may seem to be going along with the status-quo, so I need my writing to pick up on the elements within me resisting. I need writing because my speech gets misinterpreted.

The most important lesson the [phenomenological] reduction teaches us is the impossibility of a complete reduction. The philosopher is the perpetual beginner. The unfinished nature of phenomenology is not a sign of failure. It is inevitable because phenomenology’s task is to reveal the mystery of the world and the impotency of reason when confronted with the depth of our lived experiences (existence itself).

Husserl believed we should not assume any philosophic or scientific theory, and furthermore, must avoid deductive reasoning (which presupposed logic) and mathematics as well as any other speculative theory of psychology and philosophy, in order to concentrate on describing what is given directly in intuition (Anschauung). This involves the most radical form of self-questioning, involving a kind of overthrow of all previous assumptions to knowledge, and a questioning of many of our ‘natural’ (common sense, scientific) intuitions about the nature of our mental processes or the make-up of the so-called objective world.

Husserlian phenomenology focuses totally on what is given in intuition and is not meant to rely on logical inferences, or mediate knowledge of any kind.

Phenomenology must be able to cope with the most radical denial of the world, with the challenge of the most hyperbolic doubt which sees the whole world as a dream or even as non-existent. As Dermot Moran says, “The objects focused on in phenomenological viewing must be neutralized with respect to the question of actuality.”

Phenomenology is riddled with as much paradox and mystery as life itself: How can a science which claims to remain true to experience seek to be a pure science stripped of all experiential elements? Phenomenology is remote from common sense. In the phenomenological reduction, there is a radical upheaval and consciousness even ceases to be human, loses all connection to the empirical, natural, human ego and its psychological states.

And yet, in the conclusion of Schizophrenia and Common Sense: A Phenomenological Perspective, Valeria Bizzari concludes:

Quote from: Va;eria Bizzari
As in schizophrenia, although for different reasons, the subject is no longer able to transcend him/herself and empathize with others, and he remains confined to his present bodily state. S/He cannot perceive his potential to act in the world (his affordances), and space is limited to the surrounding environment: for these reasons, we can define melancholic depression as a “hyperembodiment” (Fuchs 2005; Doerr- Zehers 1995; Doerr- Zehers, Irarrázaval, Mundt & Palette 2017).). Furthermore, the patient loses her/his emotional resonance and falls into an “anaesthetic melancholy”. S/He perceives herself/himself t as if s/he were dead, as if s/he were a mere material body, a corpse. In this case, the subject also loses her/his “common sense” and s/he perceives himself as cut off from the world because he has lost her/his “minimal embodied sense of self”.

Otto Doerr- Zegers has defined this process as a “chrematization” of the body, which becomes so heavy that it can also block its functions: “Why do they call it a ‘mental’ illness? The pain isn‟t just in my head; it’s everywhere, but mainly at my throat and in my heart. Perhaps my heart is broken. Is this what this is? My whole chest feels like it’s being crushed. It’s hard to breathe.”  (Brampton,2008, p. 34).

With this in mind, chrema is the inanimate nature of the body, which loses its contact with the world. As a result, even the other structures of subjectivity become impaired. The subject perceives a temporal becoming which is not projected into the future, but rather it is crystallized into the present situation, constantly facing what has just happened (post festum), while space is perceived as too distant. Furthermore, where the schizophrenic complained of a diminished self-consciousness, the depressed registers an excessive identification with a fixed role. Finally, while in schizophrenia there is eccentricity, in melancholia there is a shift to an existential orientation dangerously “centric,” or egodystonic.

In both cases, we can register two types of depersonalization that, albeit diametrically opposed, can be traced back to the same cause: the distortion of the lived body and the consequent loss of common sense.

Contradiction?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 08:44:24 pm by Sticks and Stones »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 3792
  • Hentrichian Philosophical Pessimist
Re: Merleau-Ponty
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2020, 08:04:09 am »
It think its the difference in perspectives. You have written philosophically, while Bizzari writes from the point of view of the medical profession.

I experienced a great deal of depersonalisation,during my tenure as a waiter back in 2005. I was working for very long hours.It was almost a sweat shop. I would punch in at 8 am, and there were days when, I worked till 1 am and then slept in the restaurant's small sofa for three or four hours and the shift started all over again.

Everything felt unreal to me.Now that I am temporally removed from the situation I can talk about it but at that point of time I was a complete mess. The days and the nights passed me by and they made no sense to me.

The only relief was by the way of novels and books I carried around in my backpack.

I felt as if that period was eternal and would never end. What stood out most clearly were the false-Authority Figures all around me. The Bosses. All I wanted to do was to read and to study and all I could do was to run all over the hotel to serve the guests.Now, I want to do nothing.

There are hundreds of thousands of labour camps like the one I am telling you about all over India.
But there is this one thing-there are a certain kind of people, a lot of poor people too, who actually enjoy this kind of life.For them,its actually fun. They would laugh and gossip and run all over the hotel to take care of various tasks.

That is the bitter truth. Just like that there are people who love to reproduce, who love to compete for the next promotion,  love to save in order to buy a car.

For them knowledge is just a means they make use of in order to earn money and then splurge it by way of having babies and chasing Gortish dreams.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 10:11:55 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Kaspar Hauser

  • { }
  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 4300
  • Life teaches me not to want it.
    • What Now?
Re: Merleau-Ponty
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2020, 12:59:06 pm »
Yes, it must be the medicalized perspective which is causing a contradiction from my perspective.   I had always understood the phenomenological reduction to be an overcoming of the natural attitude, and I would assume that this natural attitude (about the actuality of the Natural World) is what most people mean when they use the term, "common sense".

Bizzari is saying that this common sense is "the embodied consciousness," and yet ...

Husserl believed we should concentrate on describing what is given directly in intuition. This involves the most radical form of self-questioning, involving a kind of overthrow of all previous assumptions to knowledge, and a questioning of many of our ‘natural’ (common sense, scientific) intuitions about the nature of our mental processes or the make-up of the so-called objective world.

I wanted to point this out, just to show that I am paying attention.  Of course, I am not so informed as to challenge the notion Valeria Bizzari suggests.   If the epoche calls for a suspension of the natural attitude (i.e., "common sense"), then it would seem more correct to say that those who experience this loss of common sense would be those who have suspended the natural attitude.

Confusion is not necessarily a bad thing.  My confusion may be a direct consequence of intellectual honesty.

It is moments such as this that I can't help but think of that great alcoholic, Ed Abbey, who stated, "I hate intellectual discussion. When I hear the words 'phenomenology' or 'structuralism', I reach for my buck knife."
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 01:31:42 pm by Sticks and Stones »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Kaspar Hauser

  • { }
  • { ∅, { ∅ } }
  • Posts: 4300
  • Life teaches me not to want it.
    • What Now?
Philosophy and Madness
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2020, 09:24:27 am »
The following article is a good reference for several threads.  I am placing it here first, since "the natural attitude" toward life reeks of Merleau-Ponty's (and Husserl's) thought, and particularly, because of the inclusion of "phenomenological psychiatry" ---- There are several threads which really belong to "Madness Theory," so, like I said, if this turns out to have something of great relavance there, I will link to this post from there.

Philosophy and Madness. Radical Turns in the Natural Attitude to Life by Wouter Kusters

 Abstract:
In this article, the relation between philosophy and madness is examined from both the perspective of phenomenological philosophy and psychiatry, and the narratives of those with a diagnosis of psychosis. Three theses are proposed:

1) a (phenomenological) philosophical attitude toward psychotic experience yields more insightful, substantial descriptions of madness, 2) serious and consistent philosophical reasoning shows remarkable affinities and similarities with patterns in psychotic experience, and 3) from madness proto-philosophical thought springs forward. In following the lines of intense mad ‘hyper-reflexivity’ and perplexity we may discover a rich world of para-philosophy, one that corresponds with philosophical ideas driven by a less strained reflexivity and wonder. By examining the relation between philosophy and madness, both parties may profit: psychotic experience may be further clarified and brought into easier relation with non-psychotic thought and practice, and philosophy may gain by widening its range of perspectives on reality and human subjectivity.

Quote from: Wouter Kusters
In this article,  I examine the relation between philosophy and madness. It is often assumed that madness has to be suppressed, excluded, or conquered before a philosophically sensible text, logical argument, or world of meaning can appear. I argue, instead, that a certain concept of madness, when grafted on phenomenological psychiatry and philosophical mysticism, is intrin-sically related to the project of philosophy. With the help of experiences of madness as presented in psychiatry and articulated in mad autobiographi-cal reports, including my own, I will show that philosophy and madness are in closer connection than is commonly assumed.

In the introduction, I refer to some superficial similarities between the two domains, and I define the domain of investigation. Next, I discuss the way these two relate to each other. What is the contribution of philosophy for an investigation into madness? To what extent is madness an effect or result of philosophy? What kind of philosophical dispositions emerge from madness? In the last section, I draw some conclusions.


A Relationship in Oblivion


The discussions in the backrooms of academic philosophy correspond, with respect to their monologous form and content, and especially their world strangeness and detachment of daily practice, with quite a few dialogues and monologues in the smoking rooms of the psychiatric ward. Instead of interpreting this observation as a pejorative for philosophy, I argue that this is an heuristically interesting and inspiring similarity.

 Although this similarity does not come as a surprise for the novice, the philosopher seldom considers it seriously. Wittgenstein (1969, par. 467) remarks:

I am sitting with a philosopher in the garden; he says again and again ‘I know that that’s a tree’, pointing to a tree that is near us. Someone else arrives and hears this, and I tell him:

‘This fellow isn’t insane. We are only doing philosophy.’
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 12:54:45 pm by Sticks and Stones »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~