Author Topic: Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself  (Read 695 times)

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Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself
« on: March 22, 2016, 11:00:22 am »
Researching humility and intellectual honesty, I stumbled upon Kantian Humility: Our Ignorance of Things in Themselves, and I distinctly recall that one of Schopenhauer's great insights was that we each know the thing in itself directly through our intimate experience of being a body.  We know the thing in itself through being animal creatures.

What do you think of Kantian Humility?

Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

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Holden

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Unicorns and Rainbows as Gort's Thing-in-Itself
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2016, 03:14:21 pm »
There it is again:you speak out loud what I think in the deepest recesses of my mind.

The question is whether Schopenhauer, in claiming thing-in-itself is Will, contradicts Kant’s restrictions on knowledge and metaphysics; In the ‘Critique of Pure Reason’ Kant puts forward his theory of ‘Transcendental Idealism’ in order to criticise the area of metaphysics, i.e. the inquiry into the ultimate nature of reality. Kant sees this tradition as being tainted with dogmatism and consequentially: “has hitherto been a merely random groping”  at the nature of reality. To solve this problem, Kant examines the nature of what it is for us to know an object of the world. He claims that in the dynamic between the subject knowing an object there lies our faculty of reason, which is not a passive faculty such as sight; we, qua humans, impose certain ‘categories’ onto experience in order for us to understand the world we live in, such as spatiality, temporality and causality;
they “are our contributions to experience” v. This leaves us with a distinction between how the world appears to us (the ‘phenomenal’ world) and how the world actually is in-itself, independent of our perception of it (the ‘noumenal’ world). And so, when we then consider that Kant believed that only objects we can experience can be objects of knowledge, we see that our attempts to transcend the phenomenal world to gain knowledge of the noumenal world, inevitably falls into error, as we cannot know that which cannot be experienced, and as reason imposes categories on our experience, we can never have experience of the world in-itself. In claiming this, Kant attacks the theories of metaphysics that attempt to gain knowledge of the thing-in-itself and sets a limit on the extent of metaphysical speculation, in that “the limits of knowledge coincide with those of possible experience” .
Schopenhauer says of Kant that his “greatest merit is the distinction of the phenomenon from the thing-in-itself, based on the proof that between things and us there always stands the intellect, and that on this account they can not be known according to what they may be in themselves.” . Schopenhauer adopts Kantian idealism but believes that there is more to say on the topic of metaphysics than merely that the thing-in-itself cannot be known and believed that, in a very particular sense, we can gain knowledge of the thing-in-itself. Despite this appearing like a contradiction of Kant’s idea, this tension will be resolved through elaboration.
Most significantly is Schopenhauer’s idea that we can know that the thing-in- itself is Will, however, it is important prior to elaborating on Schopenhauer’s conception of what Will is, to examine what he means when he says that thing-in-itself is Will.
A common misunderstanding of Schopenhauer is that he believed that we can, contradicting Kantian thought, have direct knowledge of the thing-in-itself and that it is Will. However, Schopenhauer makes a distinction between the thing- in-itself and the manifestation of the thing-in-itself in the phenomenal world. Schopenhauer is always aware of the distinction between will as his name for the noumenon and will as his name for its appearance or manifestation in the world of phenomena.
To claim that the thing-in-itself is Will would be to contradict Kant’s restrictions on metaphysics, but what Schopenhauer is claiming is not that the thing-in- itself is Will, but rather that the manifestation of thing-in-itself in the phenomenal world is fundamentally Will. It is indeed the case that Schopenhauer often calls the thing-in-itself Will, however, this is really only a solution to the problem of naming a thing which is beyond the bounds of our
experience (and therefore beyond our language). Therefore, we can see that when Schopenhauer claims that thing-in-itself is Will, he is merely naming the thing-in-itself after the most apparent and fundamental manifestation of thing- in-itself in the phenomenal world and not prescribing to it any of the features of what he means by the term Will. Indeed, it would be impossible, given that Kant established that we can only know what we can possibly experience, to give a descriptive name to that which we cannot possibly experience. Schopenhauer claims in his dialogues on death: “To answer transcendental questions in language that is made for immanent knowledge must assuredly lead to contradiction” . Now that we have a clear idea as to what Schopenhauer means when he claims that the thing-in-itself is will, we can now discuss how he comes to decide that the fundamental manifestation of the thing-in-itself is Will and what he means by the term.
Schopenhauer, in justifying why the fundamental manifestation of the thing-in- itself in the world of phenomena is Will, looks to the place of the subject, i.e. the agent whom knows, within the world of phenomena. He observes that we are conscious of ourselves, in one way, ‘from the outside’, as just an object (the body) interacting with other objects, just like we are conscious of an instance of billiard balls hitting other billiard balls, but we are also conscious of ourselves in a different way, as something more than just a succession of physical interactions. This way is the awareness of ourselves ‘from within’ as willing agents who are conscious of our actions, not as arbitrary movements, but as being willed by us. Gardiner claims:
“I am also conscious of myself in a quite separate manner ‘from within’. When I know myself in this second way, I grasp myself as will: it is precisely the awareness we have of our own bodies as expressions of will, and our own movements as acts of will, that distinguishes self-consciousness from the purely perceptual knowledge we have of other things” x
Schopenhauer believes that this second kind of self-awareness gives us a privileged view into the fundamental substratum xi of the world of phenomena; many people have attempted to determine this ‘from without’, i.e. from empirical investigation into the world of objects, but they have failed to do so. Schopenhauer says:
“On the objective path we never reach the inside of things...instead, when we try to find their inside from without and empirically, this inside always turns, under our hands, into an outside again”
By this Schopenhauer is claiming that to attempt to discover what is the fundamental nature of the manifestation of the thing-in-itself we cannot simply conduct our studies empirically or scientifically, we must look to the privileged consciousness we each have of one particular object in the world of phenomena: our own body, and extrapolate what we find is the inner nature of our bodies to all other objects. Thus as our bodies are fundamentally “will objectified”  so are all things in the phenomenal world fundamentally objectifications of Will. Although not necessary to the question it is important to briefly mention that what Schopenhauer means by Will has nothing to do with ‘human willing’ or volition but rather: “’Will’ was for him the name of a nonrational force, a blind, striving power whose operations are without ultimate purpose or design” .
It is important to note that the fact we have ‘inner-knowledge’ or knowledge ‘from-within’ of ourselves does not mean that we have access to any kind of knowledge of the thing-in-itself, only of how the thing-in-itself manifests itself in the world of phenomena. This is for the following reasons; firstly, the thing-in- itself, as being something that the concepts of spatiality and temporality do not apply, must be undifferentiated as differentiation requires these concepts. And as knowledge requires a duality between a subject (he who knows) and an object (that which is known), knowledge necessarily requires differentiation, thus making it incompatible with the thing-in-itself and therefore unachievable given our epistemic requirements for knowledge as established by Kant. And secondly, our knowledge of ourselves ‘from-within’ “inhibits the dimension of time. Time, in fact, is its very form” . As mentioned previously the concept of temporality can only be a part of the phenomenal world and so any knowledge derived from ‘inner-sense’ can only be knowledge of phenomena and never knowledge of the thing-in-itself.
                         
                                                                                     --
Some gorts think of this Kantian Humility as an escape route.They say :Well,may be then "Thing-in-itself" is "Unicorns and Rainbows".
Rainbows indeed!As I write this my nose is blocked and I am coughing like crazy-so I would gladly unleash Inmendham upon people who say these silly things. The problem is that "reality" is made of layers upon layers of metaphors,so yes,it is not any easy task to comprehend not just mathematics and metaphysics but anything completely. But that does not mean that we should accept non- sensical ways of thinking of gorts.
Now,while I am still around,sure, I would play with these complex mathematical/metaphysical metaphors, sure,but I would never ask for life again.Come to think of it,I never asked for life this time either.By the way,some of the pop songs on youtube have hundreds of millions of views.
Inmendham's videos? A few hundred,if that.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 03:27:04 pm by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
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Re: Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 12:47:31 am »
I hardly listen to any pop music these days ... just once in awhile.  That is a good piece by Gary.  No matter what anyone thinks of him, this guy makes a great deal of sense, especially when he is as coherent as in the above.

As for the espousers of Kantian Humility and Thing in Itself as Rainbows and Unicorns, I think that Schopenhauer had similar gripes against the verbiage of the academic philosophers of his day. 

It is clear that the nature of what we are is not pleasant.  All are motivated by a hunger to eat, to stay dry and warm, etc ... basically we are motivated by fear and discomfort anxiety.  Recall that in The World as Will and Representation, Schopenhauer argues that the will is an impersonal, self-perpetuating force, and that it lies at the root of all that exists ... rainbows and man-eating fish.

May your body and mind find the rest it is demanding.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 09:49:47 am by H »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

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Holden

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Death,Contemplation & Schopenhauer
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2016, 03:12:23 pm »
I remember you mentioned this book- Death,Contemplation & Schopenhauer,thanks to you I could get it for free,because of you I have saved a lot of money recently,which I otherwise would have spent on buying books-there are no libraries here,so I am usually forced to buy the book I want to read.
Anyway,so,by the sound of it,the author appears to be of Indian origin.In the book ,he tells about a boy called Nachiketa who travels to God of Death in order to learn the meaning of death.Its a small book,about 150 pages,but I think its really rich.

The question? I wonder if I can die while I am still alive.Do you think ,what you are doing,by studying mathematics,is that you are killing the worldliness in your being?Do you contemplate about death often,personal & in general?
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
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death and the contemplative life
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2016, 04:40:01 pm »
I remember that book.  It's one of the texts I was able to get from Library Genesis's first incarnation (DOT ORG).  I also appreciate its current incarnation (DOT IO).

I may want to read it again to refresh my memory now that you are going through it.  I really am enjoying that Cartwright book on Schopenhauer even though I have been reading a little at a time at around 2AM ...

I think my current obsession with mathematics has everything to do with living a more contemplative life.  It is kind of uncanny how these different interests are interconnected. 

Quote
Do you contemplate about death often,personal & in general?

Every morning I contemplate my corpse, and when I decide to get up, I contemplate my chimpanzee-like origins.  It helps to destroy vanity so as not to be disturbed by tooth decay or frail arms.

Consider these two excepts, one from the beginning of the book you mention, and the other from The Tao of Physics:

Quote
The connections between death, contemplation and the contemplative life have been a recurrent theme in the canons of both western and eastern philosophical thought.  This book examines the classical sources of this philosophical literature, in particular Plato’s Phaedo and the Katha Upanishad and then proceeds to a sustained analysis and critical assessment of the sources and standpoints of a single thinker, Arthur Schopenhauer, whose work comprehensively pursues this problem.

Going beyond the well-examined western influences on Schopenhauer, Singh offers an in-depth account of Schopenhauer’s references to eastern thought and a comprehensive examination of his eastern sources, particularly Vedanta and Buddhism. The book traces the pivotal issue of death through the whole range of Schopenhauer’s writings uncovering the deeper connotations of his crucial notion of the will-to-live.

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The general notions about human understanding . . . which are illustrated by discoveries in atomic physics are not in the nature of things wholly unfamiliar, wholly unheard of, or new. Even in our own culture they have a history, and in Buddhist and Hindu thought a more considerable and central place. What we shall find is an exemplification, an encouragement, and a refinement of old wisdom.

Julius Robert Oppenheimer

If matter cannot be created or destroyed, but only changes form, then what is this hallucination we call life?

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Do you think ,what you are doing,by studying mathematics,is that you are killing the worldliness in your being?

I am not sure about this, but I will think about it now that you mention it.  I think I am just very appreciative of the qualities this studying inculcates, like the humility it takes to allow oneself to think as slowly as is called for, the honesty it takes to face one's confusion and celebrate little mind shiftings, and, of course, the patience required if one is committed to studying a deep and often difficult, seemingly fathomless area of ideas and techniques. 

It develops in me qualities for living a contemplative life of the mind.

The delicious irony here is that this desire to contemplate upon mathematics requires that this organism I call my body, the body, remains alive.

I want to live.  It wants to live.

I can write that even though there may be moments deep in the night when there may be a quiet longing for nothingness, where there would be no "I" to regret not being able to develop its mathematical maturity.  Maybe I am subconsciously overloading.  I mean, maybe I am putting such a great deal on my queue that I want to study for the remainder of my life so as to be relieved, should I be suddenly on the verge of a surprise death, relieved that I don't have to study anymore ever again.   ;D

The body has doesn't need instructions on how to die, remember?

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I wonder if I can die while I am still alive.

?

Maybe that's what we are in the process of doing.  We just happen to be articulating the process by which life teaches us not to want it.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 08:32:38 pm by H »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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A little poem written in Berlin Asylum
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2016, 02:33:43 pm »
About a 50 years before Freud the Plagiarist,there was a German medical student,who used to visit the Berlin asylum,to observe the patients.Due to his sympathetic approach to the patients,he soon developed friendly relationships with them.One Traugott Schultze,a patient, dedicated a little poem on compassion to the student:
To the noble one,who appears fair
to him who cries in the cell
the suffering friend of human being..


Gorts always project that medical student as a mean bastard.
His name? Herr Arthur Schopenhauer.

I think that little poem is worth more than all the votes by the BBC viewers for Nietzsche.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 02:50:26 pm by Holden »
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Re: Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2016, 08:02:01 pm »
To the noble one,who appears fair
to him who cries in the cell
the suffering friend of human being..


Where on earth did you find that tid-bit?

That makes me all the more convinced that I have been right about Schopenhauer all along. 

Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

raul

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Re: Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2016, 11:11:36 am »
Señor Hentrich,
If possible I would like you to listen to a famous Colombian author, Fernando Vallejo,on YouTube.
One quote: "El hombre es una máquina biológica programada para eyacular y todo lo demás es hipocresía, palabrería, cuentos".
Man is a biological machine programmed to eyaculate and all the rest is hypocrisy, talk, stories,etc. (more or less the translation). Take care in New Jersey. Raul

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Re: Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2016, 11:50:18 am »
"El hombre es una máquina biológica programada para eyacular y todo lo demás es hipocresía, palabrería, cuentos".

[Man is a biological machine programmed to eyaculate and all the rest is hypocrisy, talk, stories,etc.]

I'll have to check out that writer.  He's probably a Schopenhauerian!   :)

Dead End: Ch. 2 - Non Compos Mentis

Quote
Philosophy must take us to the border of the sphere that cannot be reached by language.  It should advance to the frontiers in order to discover that for which no concepts can exist.  The unutterable must not become the unknowable. – Schopenhauer

One cannot “have truth”, but one “stands in truth”.  Schopenhauer was not seeking a body of correct judgments, but a “mode of existence”.  He found contemplation missing in Kant, and he turned to Plato for what Kant denied him.  What fascinated Schopenhauer was not so much the dry moral duty of Kant’s doctrine, but the force of freedom summoned by Kant.  This force of freedom broke the chains of everyday reason, of mere self preservation.  Schopenhauer named this freedom the renunciation of the will.

Early German mystics and Indian teachings of wisdom used similar words to embrace that unknowable nothingness, which at the same time, is  everything.  It is clear to all who have read any biography on Schopenhauer’s life that Dionysus frightened him.  He wanted Dionysus out of the way.   I am unable to elude the Dionyssian impulses, and for this reason, I am a man torn apart by contradictory motives.  Mental activity is at its strongest when genital urges are strongest.  To give into the sex impulse is to lose the power that could have been put to mental activity.

The Indian salvation pattern – liberation from the series of forms and relapse into nothingness – is validation of what Schopenhauer calls “the denial of the will to live.”  Another thing Schopenhauer found inviting in the Upanishads is that it contained nothing that corresponded to the Western Creator, God.  He had unearthed a religion without a god, a metaphysics without a heaven.

“Where is the thing-in-itself most clearly comprehended?”

“In the will.”

“Where is the will most clearly experienced?”

“The most intimate knowledge of that inner essence of the world, the thing-in-itself, the will-to-live, is in the ecstasy of copulation.  The orgasm is the true essence and core of all things.  Copulation is the goal and purpose of all existence.”

The Upanishads awakened Arthur Schopenhauer to the wisdom of the East.  His pessimistic view of a demonic will, blind and insatiable, compelling  all things to share in its own futile unrest, had a tremendous influence on German thought.  It appears as though life unquestionably depends upon our not knowing it too well, for what healthy creature, whether man or beast, can oppose the demands of this essence of the world when in the grip of sexual ecstasy?



« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 11:52:41 am by Kaspar Hauser »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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Re: Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2016, 02:02:39 pm »
I found it in Wiley Blackwell Companion to Schopenhauer,which I downloaded from libgen,thanks to you.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 02:41:29 pm by Holden »
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Re: Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2016, 03:18:15 pm »
I had stumbled upon a cool wooden flute for $12 in an Africana shop in Downtown Seattle back in 2009.

I loved it. 

One night while drinking beer by a frog pond hidden by some bushes, and listening to the outdoor boombox someone sold to me for $5 when I had been living in the streets right at the Town Square by the water, a couple teenagers from Clockwork Orange had found me and offered to smoke some of their herb with me.   

After a couple tokes, the police bombarded us, and I was arrested.  Yes, most likely it was a set-up.  The police probably gave the kids the reefer to entrap me.  I was a nuisance, I guess.  They told me that they could here my radio from in front of the bar across the highway.

That night, while the police were subduing me, I lost my harmonica (also purchased in Downtown Seattle, made in Germany - over $40) and I lost that flute, the only flute I was ever able to play.  Well, I found the flute at that spot a few days later.  Someone had shoved it into the mud.  It was broken.

One day I made a special trip into Seattle to track down that Africana shop, but they had gone out of business.  I had to get a different one, and it was like the one in the above video, with just that hole on the top ...  I couldn't play it.  That's more difficult than it looks.

So I just cried in my beer.   ;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 10:02:33 am by Kaspar Hauser »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

raul

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Re: Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2016, 09:05:37 am »
Señor Hentrich,
Thank you for your reply. Fernando Trujillo is a Colombian author and filmmaker. He made a famous movie " La Virgen de los Sicarios". Another quote:
"No, los ecologistas son especialmente infames y mentirosos: quieren preservar las especies de esta tierra para el hombre, para que el hombre las disfrute y se las coma. Yo no. Yo pienso muy distinto de ellos: especie que se extingue, especie que deja de sufrir. Que se mueran los perros, que se mueran las vacas, que se mueran las ratas, mis hermanas las ratas, eso es lo que quiero yo."

My translation is: "No,ecologists are specially infamous and liars; they want to preserve the species of this Earth for man so that man can enjoy them and eat them. I don´t. I think very differently from them; species that become extinguished, speicies that stop suffering. Let the dogs die, let the cows die, let the rats die, my sisters the rats; that is what I want".

Schopenhauer is a formidable thinker because he found in Indian philosophy no heaven, no hell and probably no purgatory. No nothing. But you know this is something that most find abhorrent. I suppose that´s why Schopenhauer is not well viewed. I read that you smoked a lot and also drank a lot. You won´t like this but you are a time-ticking bomb. Take care. I hope to read your thoughts, if possible, for many years. Raúl

Holden

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Re: Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2016, 12:07:58 pm »
I think in a way both Señor  Raul & I & many other visitors to this message board are selfish:we would like you to stick around.
For the sailors are lost without the pole star.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 12:10:49 pm by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: Schopenhauer's Will as Kant's Thing-in-Itself
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2016, 03:48:02 pm »
Señor Holden,
Thank you for your comment. Indeed as a human being I am selfish and as you said I would like Hentrich and you to stick around. But that is up to Mr.Hentrich. He is certainly no deadbeat. It takes guts and deep thoughts to write these thoughts that go agains the current. Take care. Raúl