Author Topic: The Plain Truth  (Read 525 times)

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Holden

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The Plain Truth
« on: May 03, 2017, 10:07:08 pm »
The plain truth, I may as well admit it, is that I've never been really interested in being alive.
What does being alive entail but facing a thousand torments everyday.
The so-called pleasures of life have all turned into dust and ashes. There is nothing I look forward to ,except,everlasting sleep.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 07:26:54 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

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Icelander

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Re: The Plain Truth
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 09:56:09 pm »
How interesting. Humans can be so different yet turn out the same. As a child in an abusive home I still had great hopes and dreams.  Could that be the stories I was told about life when very small. When I was little my mother gave me a book of fairy tales. I think that had a great effect on me. Many were stories of courage and glory. I think I believed them.

 By the time I was in high school I was getting it from all sides yet still had hope of a different future. It was much later maybe in my 50s that I truly came to despise my life and humanity in total. I always knew how to deal with fear it but now I had lost hope. I've truly caught up to you in my 60s. I think about death every day and crave non existence. I have no faith in any positive creator or afterlife. I want all the way out. I see nothing worth saving in this being called Icelander. I want nothingness. In the end I'll have to leave by my own hand most likely. In fact that seems like the only honorable way to leave this life. I won't be able to take this physical and mental pain forever. At least that's my hope. Unfortunately we have a built in survival drive that must be overcome. Suicide takes great courage for most. No matter what the ignorant say about it. 

Holden

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Mr.Icelander,

I see in you a being who has attained the pinnacle of understanding. Someone who can discern the difference between the "thing-in-itself" and mere appearances-the veil of illusions.It is very,very rare to come across a man like you.

You say you have read Schopenhauer -I'd love to discuss his philosophy and ideas with you. You see,unlike most people of my generation I am not hip enough to be an "app developer" and still prefer to study age-old philosophers like Schopenhauer,Kant and Plato.My folks think I dabble in this "useless" philosophy as I am not bright enough to be one of the top corporate honchos,well,they are free to think what they like.

I have read almost every single word that Schopenhauer ever published. I had to,you see. I gulped down his words like a man dying of thirst in a desert.
I am trying to deliberately model my life after Schopenhauer's(and Herr Hentrich is the one who enabled to imagine that it was a possibility ).

I'm rather proud of my failures in the material realm,for if I had succeeded-heaven forbid- I just might have ended up being foolish enough to hook up with a lady and procreate. No,that route is not for me.Never was.With me  my lineage will end. I am the last one.

When I read your words -a sense of deep calm came over me. Like these posts of yours were preordained somehow.
I have contemplated doing away with myself many,many times since I was about 15.However,comprehending Schopenhauer has altered me a great deal.

I still ,by no means, can say that I have understood the entire thought which Schopenhauer wanted to propound, I am still deeply engrossed in my Schopenhauerian Studies.I might still end up doing way with myself eventually.


There are certain transcendent questions at issue here,which are impossible to approach with the human language. There are times when I literally go insane with pain and suffering.I very often weep alone in my room on Sunday afternoons for the plight and predicament I find myself in.
Schopenhauer speaks to me about an unconditional no to "life in general" and not merely about a conditional no to "life in which suffering is rife ".Want,pain and suffering are not predicates to life,but its synonyms. 

There are profound metaphysical implications of the way one perceives life. I think I am getting a bit vague. Words fail me pretty often. Well,as Schopenhauer says, when one is breathing one's last breath,the Nature asks the dying man" Have you had enough ?",if the man says yes,the will to life turns against itself and denies itself ,but if he says no-he gets to taste the fruit of life again.And again.And again.


My rejection of existence is not because of some a posteriori evidence but because of the a priori conditions of the very possibility of experience of existence. The a posteriori/empirical evidence does help in clarifying the matter quite a bit,no two ways about that.However, you see, it is not that we are poor players-it is that the game itself is deeply flawed at its very core.

The Fruit of Life is Rotten.

Keep well.I look forward to  corresponding with you.


https://youtu.be/DR91Rj1ZN1M



« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 05:29:38 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Icelander

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Re: The Plain Truth
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2017, 04:13:56 pm »
Greetings Holden, It was something you said about Arthur that got me looking into this site and then registering.  I stated in my first post on this site that due to some really abusive childhood issues I've kind of got an anxiety based ADD. So very little sticks without a lot of repetition over long periods of time. I never read Schopenhauer's major work in total.  What I have read over and over is "Studies in Pessimism".  I got the conformation and solace I was looking for right there.

 Since then and for maybe the last two years I've been studying all the major Philosophers (and some minor) vial youtube discussions. I have free time galore so I've listened to almost all the critiques and through that I've gotten the jist of what these guys were saying. So what I'm saying here is I'll have to discuss Schopenhauer in a limited fashion. In the end he's the one who I think has the best notion of what this madness is. However at this point the only one I truly am sure about is myself. I'm sure I'm likely wrong but at least I know what I mean when I say things.  Reading the worlds of others we can only guess about what they really mean. Didn't Wittingen have something to say about that?

As to suicide to tell the truth I actually have one attempt under my belt. I was ignorant of what I was attempting and so failed and just woke up. Then as I usually do after a failure I made and in depth study of suicide methods for about a year and now I know how to proceed with the best chance of success. The funny thing was that after that first failure done in haste I have a real fear of the next attempt. It's a fear of failure and worsening my condition I think much more that actual death.  Having grown up in insane fundamentalist religion I can't shake the thought that whoever is the creator has it out for me personally and would never let me succeed. This is what early brainwashing can do to a fragile eggshell mind to quote Jim Morrison.

  So I have immense respect for the suicide. Especially the ones who the moment they realize that this world is an insane hell they don't hesitate a moment and just off themselves. Schopenhauer mentions these brave and wise souls. Oh to be so brave. I'm working towards it. In the meantime what I'm doing is learning everything I can about the hell realm I exist in. This pixilated simulation created by a demonic god child with too much time on it's hands.  Humans aren't really responsible for the mess they make but for god I have true disdain and disgust.  He's one piece of f____ up s___.  I wish this site would let me swear lol.

Holden, one thing I have to say about discussion of these great minds. At least on my end. I am going to acknowledge that it's just a way of avoiding what needs to be done. That doesn't mean I don't want to do it.

 Hey have you read much Camus?  What do you think about a philosopher who actually had a good time?  And what do you think about the Stoics. I have to admit that I'm a fan of that impossible lifestyle.  Take care friend.

Icelander

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Re: The Plain Truth
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2017, 04:20:25 pm »
Oh yeah and btw I love that song Mad World. It was my childhood. I learned to play it on the ukulele.

Holden

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Re: The Plain Truth
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2017, 10:43:46 am »
Mr.Iceman,

Camus? I have read the Stranger. I kind of liked it.Primarily because Meursault ,outwardly, is like me-I lot of people say that I am way too indifferent.But on the inside...but the inside does not matter to them,does it?

I don't agree with Camus philosophically,there is no salvation to be found in embracing absurdity.Sisyphus can never be imagined to be happy.

The Stoics say go with the flow-if today you get to dine with the kings then dine with the kings,tomorrow if you have to sleep under the bridge then do  that as well smilingly,only desire is not something to be trifled with-once one dines with the kings one is going to find it a lot harder to sleep under the bridge. Asceticism is not a piece of cloth which one can put on and off ,at will.It takes years to get into the groove.

Mr.Iceman,have you ever thought about how we came to be here in the first place? I don't mean the biological process but the metaphysical one.
I suffer everyday in the office.People laugh at me. I too want to blow my brains out,but can "I" be sure that ,that would really,really be the end?

I don't believe in the Christian hell. I am not a Christian,not even a nominal one. I am not afraid of dying(though I don't like pain at all). It would be like hiding from the people,which I do every day,only I'd be hiding forever.  But have you considered the possibility that maybe you and I,we are only the shoots of the true of life,we can chop off the shoots but what if the root remains unaffected?And if that be so, then in time,more shoots would sprout forth..

But Mr.Iceman,there are days,and they are very frequent,when I feel like I won't be able to take it anymore.Only, I don't want to come back again ,ever,in any form or shape.

https://youtu.be/T5qeaxu4n3A
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 11:13:48 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Icelander

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Re: The Plain Truth
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 08:34:12 pm »
Good afternoon fellow sufferer.  That is how Schopenhauer thought we should address each other rather than Mr. or whatever.

 I agree with you about the conclusion to the Myth of Sisyphus. However I think the rest of the book was more than interesting. Camus suffered with the same malaise we here have. We all do our best to try and figure it out and then deal with it. I think his method worked to a degree for him and I use some of it myself with some success.  That's the most we can hope for. A little bit of relief now and then. Like the aesthetics of Schopenhauer it only works for moments and then back to the torment either conscious or unconscious. Oh aren't we the lucky ones. lol

You have to be tough to be a stoic  proper but I think we can take a bit that we can apply in our weakness and again get some relief. I look under every rock these days. The distress is that bad. I'm also an opiate addict to top it off. Legal due to my medical condition but nonetheless I'm an addict and start to lose with nerve  pain and drug withdrawal if I don't dose at least twice a day. What fun this life is.

Yes Holden I have thought a lot about how we might have come here. I have collected most of the theories and think two or three seem logical enough to be possible. None of them bring comfort. I know where you are going with this as it's one of the theories that makes some sense.  There is no way out? Neichian eternal return? Yes quite possible but I pray not. More to my thinking and yours it seems is that if we are all of one consciousness as long as anyone is suffering we will on some level be there with them. Similar to what you said about shoots.  That's not pretty either. But the fact is we don't know and so the best thing I would think is take any road that is open to me. That only road is suicide as I've looked under all the other rocks to the best of my meager abilities.  If it's the end of everything then what a fine thing that is. If it's not I'm no worse off than I was before. I just reboot or whatever. I don't believe in hell anymore either although due to my upbringing that tormented me for much of my time here.

Due to my illness and my mental state I am 99% certain that if nothing else kills me first like a heart attack or stroke I will take my own life when the pain is more than I can take. Now I walk the razor's edge and like I said if I had more courage I'd do it today. But I don't and I have to live with that cowardice. Too bad that first time didn't work because for some reason I did not hesitate that day. I hope that state of mind will return at the right time. I choose to believe it will and I'll be able to see for myself if something lies beyond this.

 Actually I think something may. There is something strange about the form and content of NDEs that so many have that makes me think something sinister is afoot. In other words you won't find me just going toward the light without taking a look to see what's behind me. It makes absolutely no sense for this world to be so horrible and the next to be all fun and games with a loving god. I have a sneaking suspicion that that tunnel and that light is just the door back to this reality. It's a womb you're looking at and the last place I want to be.

So maybe you like myself are a bit of a coward when it comes to the subject of suicide. It wouldn't surprise me. There are a lot of forces aligned against the act.  Social and biological/psychological. These are hard times dear friend. My wish for you is that you find some relief even just around the edges like I have. I have the affection of two really great dogs and we spend many hours far from humanity in the mountains each day. That helps. Not like it used to, I know too much now but it still does help. Take care friend. One day this has to end and I'm pretty hopeful our personality doesn't go on past this one life. Our essence may but not the guy you know as Ice. I'm certainly glad of that as I'm terribly tired of myself, as a human animal with a twisted mind.


Holden

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Re: The Plain Truth
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2017, 12:51:23 pm »
My Fellow Sufferer Iceman,
Well,I would read more of Camus' work and let you know what I think about it.I so greatly admire Schopenhauer because what he has say resonates deeply with me. Schopenhauer does not have all the answers.He never claims that. What the thing-in-itself maybe per se, we can never know,but it is "Will" for "us".

 I think he suspected that his father,whom he revered ,had taken his own life.
 In an allegory, he compared ending one's life, when subject to great suffering, to waking up from sleep when experiencing a terrible nightmare. However, most suicides were seen as an act of the will, as it takes place when one denies life's pains, and is thus different from ascetic renunciation of the will, which denies life's pleasures.

According to him, moral freedom the highest ethical aim is to be obtained only by a denial of the will to live. Far from being a denial, suicide is an emphatic assertion of this will. For it is in fleeing from the pleasures, not from the sufferings of life, that this denial consists. When a man destroys his existence as an individual, he is not by any means destroying his will to live. On the contrary, he would like to live if he could do so with satisfaction to himself, if he could assert his will against the power of circumstance, but circumstance is too strong for him.

To him, denial of the will to live was  fleeing life's pleasures, but suicide was fleeing life's suffering. To him, the suicidal person is someone who wants to live, but thinks that his position makes it impossible.
However, he's sympathetic to the suicidal person and considers suicide to be a reasonable response to life. He just thinks it isn't the correct one.
There is an exception-embracing death by way of starvation-absolute denial of the will to live.
 

« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 01:08:52 pm by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.