Author Topic: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato  (Read 158454 times)

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Holden

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Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« on: February 15, 2018, 12:35:08 am »

Senor Raul,
With your kind permission,I'd like to initiate a Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato thread in parallel with Buddhism-Schopenhauer-Hinduism thread so that we might see how Schopenhauer's thinking was influenced by Kant and Plato.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

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Holden

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2018, 04:18:25 am »
The key things to remember are these:
1.The Upanishads say there are two worlds: Maya(the world of illusion) and Atma/Brahma(the true being).
2.Buddhism says there are two worlds: Samsara(the world of decay and death) and Nirvana (the world of "nothingness").
3.Plato says there are two worlds: The world of timeless "Forms" and the world of shadowy copies.
4.Kant says there are two worlds:The world of "Thing in itself" and the world of phenomenon.

Being an avid reader of them all,Schopenhauer says that there is a world of "representations" and then there is the world of "Will".

Remember that our "kingdom" is not of this world.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 04:21:12 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2018, 05:48:14 am »
Holden,
Thank you for your explanation. I appreciate your taking the time to write here.

So in Buddhism, we are in the world of decay and death, samsara. Sometimes I think that it is not enough for human beings to carry out self-extinction. This planet should be pulverized, so no more laboratory for this bitter experiment with the homo sapiens sapiens. No more imposition in this humancoop. This life on Earth is not the true life we should be living, life in capital letters. Here we are in a chamber of horrors. We, humans,are just bred and harvested for big game hunting. Humans die by hundreds of thousands every day. One or more is of little importance. We close our eyes and keep this machinery going.

I read these lines that the seventeenth century, Thomas Hobbes said that “some men are of so cruel a nature, as to take a delight in killing men more than you should to kill a bird.”

Yes, samsara, the world of decay and death.

Take care and ride safely.

Holden

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2018, 10:59:37 am »
Senor Raul,

You see,when I desire "beautiful women"-Paraguayan or Indian-at the very same instant I also choose heartache and suffering which such a relationship inevitably entails.Do I have perfect control on my impulses.No.But I do not want to be dragged through the mud again and again.The idea is to see the suffering which I would have to undergo in the face of any woman I might like to approach.I cannot have the cake and eat it too.
That is just not the way things work .

Forget sexual pleasure ,even such innocent appearing pleasures like eating "delicious"food are to be paid for,not just with dollars but with the coins of suffering.

Perfect peace comes with perfect renunciation.

You say that you would like to pulverise the earth to ensure that no life crops up again-a fine idea.I'd only add that if we pulverise the "desire",the earth  and all other life bearing planets,for all their solidity,would disappear like the morning mist.

Keep well.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Holden

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2018, 11:17:51 am »
When they persecute me I recall all the times I have been lax as regards reunuciation and I accept the persecution-I let it drain my body of obnoxious desires.
RENUNCIATION-that is THE word.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 11:27:41 am by Holden »
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2018, 05:56:03 am »
Holden,
I would say you have the attributes to be persecuted by the ladies. I would only be persecuted by the police or creditors.
We come with a body programmed to have sexual desires. Temptation is all around us. Sex with pleasure and reproduction go together. I said to some people that I came into this world because my parents conceived me in heat, not because the Holy Ghost intervened.

As you say suffering and heartache go together in having a partner. But also the material aspect is important. If one is not able to provide, then one will have problems, speciall when there are children.

Renunciation is only for a few who want to leave this world of pain and sorrows. Certainly that is the wise thing to do. Renunciation is a word that reminds me of the things that I read about the Cathars. For the Cathars the world was the handiwork of an evil god. It was the creation of  dark forces. Matter was corrupt, and irrelevant to salvation. No attention had to be paid to the systems set up to force people into obeying the man with the sharpest sword, the fattest wallet, or the biggest stick of incense. The authorities in this world were a fraud, and Church authority was total hypocrisy.

For the Cathars it was up to the man or woman to decide whether he or she was willing to renounce the material for a life of self-denial. If not, one would keep returning to this world—that is, be reincarnated—until ready to embrace a life  to allow accession, at death, to the blissful state one had experienced as an angel prior to having been tempted out of heaven at the beginning of time. To be saved was to become a saint. To be damned was to live, again and again, on this corrupt Earth. Hell was here, not in some horrible afterlife dreamed up by the Church in Rome. For them the Church belong to the matter.

Yes, pulverize the earth, this planet, this horrible laboratory is a thought that comes to my mind. But I am not in power to do that. This Earth is already dying but the problem is human beings. There is no advantage to be gained by destroying our homes, and yet we do it every single day.

Those who are the real rulers of this wretched world probably have total destruction in their plans. The Nazis and the Soviets had much practice. Before them, the British, the French,the Spaniards, the Japanese, and even the Belgians. The scale of the atrocities they carried out is an example. Knowledge have much to do with this mass murder. You know all this already.

Also at a personal level , we do evil things, without realizing it. Last week I talked to a guy who works in a supermarket. His three-yeard old daughter caught the dengue fever. Dengue is epidemic here, and now with zika and chikunkuya the situation is worse. I got the dengue fever two years ago and left me very week for two months.

I do not pay attention to the news, but this one got my attention. A 18-year old girl stabbed his seven-month old baby, the neighbors tried to save the baby but it was too late. Supposedly this girl has mental health problems. This happened in the countryside. It is not the first time I have heard of this. Yes, samsara, the world of decay and death.

Stay safe and ride carefully.


 

Holden

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2018, 12:01:25 am »
Senor Raul,

I think this is hiw things are:that teenager you mention hardly knew what the world and life and her body is all about,hell I have known  people in their 50s giving birth -she was after all just a teenager.

All these coporations and billions of people -to what purpose?For nothing.
Let me say though that people forget these grim realties in the throes of sexual passion.In the news I read about corrpution in politics,in business -they all go round and round & beat about the bush.

No,Senor Raul ,they do not remember pain and suffering.In True Detective Rust says he is not a christian but he meditates on the Cross.

I had a so called christian in the office.All the wall of his room were filled with photos of Jesus smiling down on couples in tranditional wedding attire,with Jesus saying -I have suffered for you and now you go right ahead and have a jolly good time.So very convenient.

There is this concept called Prosperity gospel-which effectively says Jesus want us to have fun,fun,fun.
I am sick of such people.

I have recently been recently been transferred to a very big city and the amount of sexuality on display here has to be seen to be believed.

Keep well.


La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2018, 05:20:07 am »
Holden,
Yes, there are women who give birth at the age of 45 or 50. The desire to be a mother is very strong and no matter how evil this world is, nothing is going to prevent women from becoming mothers. Of course men decided to be parents at this stage in life.

As you say, we are in the wheel of samsara. We are just programmed. Women specially suffer the impact of the social and family pressure and they will never accept that they are guinea pigs in this human prison farm. Yes, this farm where women whose baby bottles called breasts are used to give birth and breastfeed the baby slaves. A woman would slap me on the face if I said these things to her.

Now that you are in a big city, you will tempted by the female "tunics of flesh" as the Cathars called the bodies.

If you speak of the alien gods, human beings must be useful to them. They made humans for exploitation. That would be the meaning of life. If you make a chair, you will use to sit on that chair, so the chair is useful. The alien gods must come from time to time to check how their human experiment is going on. Maybe this human farm is a kind of sociological study where they study human behavior. Who knows really?  Reality could be stranger than fiction.

I remember the scene in Matrix where Morpheus shows a small battery to Neo. Maybe that is what we are, pure energy or pure electricity. Or the scene in Blade Runner, we are replicants searching for the Maker to ask him/her why we are just here 5, 20 or 80 years on this Earth. But most people are not interested in these matters. These issues bring conflicts with the family, with the authorities, with friends, with the women, themselves. They want to be part of society. To find out that you have been lied to all your life is not very pleasant.

Pain and suffering are to be avoided at all costs in this optimistic age. Unfortunately the people are more fascist than the ruling elites. Most decide to obey the pyramids of power and endure the injustice and inequality.

As I said I envy those who escaping from this madness at a very young age they decide to leave for the unknown. This human world is not worth it.

Stay safe, take care of your health.

Holden

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2018, 07:56:19 am »
Senor Raul,

Yes ,it is true-there are many,many physically attractive women here.But their admirers are legion.I came to the city not with them in the mind-but the ugly,the frail and the disfigured.I meditate on their shrunken ,sorrowful faces-on one hand they have a baby,and on the other ,a begging bowl.
For them everyday brings a new struggle with itself.
I like to think of their horrible lives-their plight of being despiced by all men.

Where is the depth in the thoughts about a comely woman?A forsaken woman with stumps for hands -gives a lot to think about.

If I were a painter I would not be interested in depicting the duchess or the princess,but the old widow who survives by begging.


Keep well.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2018, 01:24:48 pm »
Holden,
Thank your for your response. You have seen much suffering there. It makes you really think about the human misery. Few ,like you, Hentrich and others, think about our human misery. I  have been told that life is sacred and nothing about death. Silence is the answer. Who dreams the dream of life? This world is a dream of maniacs.

I know that Nemesis is the name of the Greek goddess of revenge, the punisher of pride and arrogance. I would gladly pray to this goddess but I also want revenge and I also am proud and arrogant. 

You write If you were a painter you would not be interested in depicting the duchess or the princess,but the old widow who survives by begging. That is the problem, Holden, duchess,barons, princes, CEOs, politicians,ministers,top models, pay lots of money. That is the power of posterity and prestige.

The newspapers together with the social networks, here and everywhere, have their social pages and I am sure they make tons of money in showing the celebrities drinking, partying, dancing, talking to other beautiful members of the high society. It is understandable. Those above are telling you that they are indeed the players and the rest are on the periphery.

Few want to look at the ugly, the frail and the disfigured. Their faces and bodies are not marketable. Not for sale.

I forgot to tell you that a 34-year old man killed his 17-year old girlfriend in the neck with a blunt object. Then the guy removed her uterus and ovaries and took the fetus, and later her remains were found near a stream. The girl has been pregnant for five months and supposedly the man was the father. This crime happened in the countryside. This kind of crime pales in comparison with what happens in India and other parts of the world.

You wrote that Rust Cohle had a cross and meditated without being a Christian. This is a noisy world to meditate on the Cross. Millions are baptized Christians but few would take the Cross. 

Ever heard of Mount Athos?, where only male monks stay and pray. I would go there.

Stay safe.

Holden

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2018, 07:38:16 am »
Senor Raul,
There is a great deal of mystery. There are some universal archetypes which we are compelled to play out again and again.
It entails a great deal of suffering,a great deal of pain.

The forces that compel us are strong.We cannot withstand them.You talk of monasteries-these are very old and many ,many generations of men have been drawn to them.The forces that draw you towards them are ancient.

“We discern a crimson line on this earth, a red, blood-spattered line which ascends, struggling, from matter to plants, from plants to animals, from animals to man.” – Kazantzakis.

Human existence is great deal of trouble and is certainly not worth it.

The archetypes are ahistorical,meaning,they hardly ever change with time.
Keep well.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2018, 01:57:53 pm »
Holden,
Thank you for your words. Yes, there is much mystery. And the mystery is us, human beings. Human beings suffering pain and sorrows. Generations and generations come and go. I read that in 1796, the researcher Charles Cuvier gave a public lecture at the Inslitute de France in Paris. Cuvier proved that the species created by God were not eternal. They could, he said, "become extinct" in a kind of "revolution of the earth." The new tribes that have taken their place, could ourselves be destroyed one day, and replaced by others. So humans come and go.

I mention the monasteries because wise men and women have retreated to these places in search of tranquility and some peace. Ascets,hermits, monks,nuns have been searching for inner peace. I suppose some attained some kind of peace while many others did not. Of course other men and women who experience spiritual crises have gone to the mountains or at least maintained their contacts with their fellow human beings to the minimum. Men and women need meaning and purpose. I think that those men and women in deep seclusion must realize the complete meaninglessness of life. That life is a void.

Yes, existence means a great deal of pain. So no existence equals to no pain. But the average man and woman do not want to think about these problematic issues. We have been trained from birth to be sleepwalkers with dead eyes and deaf ears. We unwillingly are part of a diabolical game. Playthings, yes, that is what we are. We are human cars living on autopilot.

Stay well and safe. Ride carefully.   


Holden

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2018, 04:52:25 am »

Senor Raul,
Blaise Pascal wrote in his Pensees: “What could be more contrary to the rules of our miserable justice than the eternal damnation of a child, incapable of will, for an act in which he seems to have had so little part that it was actually committed 6,000 years before he existed? Certainly nothing jolts us more rudely than this doctrine, and yet but for this mystery, the most incomprehensible of all, we remain incomprehensible to ourselves.”
Keep well.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

raul

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2018, 06:01:32 am »
Holden,
Yes, we are a mystery to ourselves. A huge mystery in this universe. All this world is corrupted mud. Everything rots and perishes. You see it there every day.We see, hear,touch and feel so much decay. We, human creatures, that come in blood and sshhit. Yes, we creatures that get sick and die and rot. Every centimeter on this Earth is soaked in blood. This human zoo where our zoo keepers are having a good time.

Three days ago the dead bodies of a Paraguayan farmer and his grandson were found after more than two months in the countryside. It was believed they were kidnapped for money. It turned out that the old man was murdered as an act of revenge and the 12-year old boy was stabbed and killed because he recognized the murderers. It is reported that the mentor of this brutal act was the former girlfriend of the old man´s son. The little boy was murdered for the sins of the father. How tragic.

I am a nonentity as they call me here, but how I wish to punish these evil gods for these crimes. They are far from the reach of my hands. I would go medieval on them. But the rack or the axe are too soft for them. Sad thing to say, but I would use the efficient methods used by the Gestapo. In WW II the Butcher of Lyon, Klaus Barbie tortured the Resistance leader, Jean Moulin by hitting his hands with the windows. Even an amauter like me can kill.


Stay safe and avoid the female temptations if you can.




Holden

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Re: Kant-Schopenhauer-Plato
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2018, 05:22:33 am »

Senor,
The doctrine of original sin is the one teaching that is able to reveal us to ourselves.  That I commit this or that sin is not my problem; what afflicts me, rather, is this inborn, as it were “natural,” “perverseness of the heart” .
Although this message is consistently offensive to people who hold some status in the world, it could be a message of great comfort to the insulted, the degraded, and the poor.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.