Author Topic: On Non-Breeding Romantic Pair-Bonding  (Read 513 times)

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Nation of One

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On Non-Breeding Romantic Pair-Bonding
« on: July 05, 2018, 09:00:31 am »
What do you think of relationships where a man and woman pair bond with no intention of reproducing?

Many couples may "pair-bond" for companionship.  Example:  Cioran. 

Any thoughts on the possibility of bonding with a woman, even later in life, for no reason in particular.
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

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Silenus

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Re: On Non-Breeding Romantic Pair-Bonding
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2018, 03:21:43 pm »
I have given this some thought, and while there are days when the desire for something like that burns me deeply, in my more sober moments I face the fact that: I'm just not good for someone else.  I'm barely scraping by and will likely cease from working (permanently), not from good fortune, but from tiredness with the system.  I'm giving some serious consideration to going on the bum.

Beyond that, I'm too selfish.  I prefer solitude, I unfortunately find my self to be apathetic often and I really have a hard time committing myself to anything,or anyone.  I'm 26 years OLD and have never been in a relationship longer than a month, and am still a "virgin" (I do prefer to remain as one, again, in my most sober moments).

And above all, there's the pessimism and defeatist nature.  ;)

So fires may burn; I just need to remember to take a cold hard look at myself.

"And the strict master Death bids them dance."

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Re: On Non-Breeding Romantic Pair-Bonding
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2018, 05:09:24 pm »
I don't envy couples at all.

I've been alone for so long that I can't imagine complicating my life by involving someone else in the decisions I make, like the decision to get by on less, the decision never to purchase a smart phone, the decision not to pay homage to any God, and so many other little peeves which are the condition of my "liberation". 

No, I was asking the question out of curiosity, so thanks for repsonding.   The main point for me is that I have no regrets about living the way I do, as a single, non-married, non-dating, not-looking-for-any-romance modern day monk practicing my own personal religion-of-one, a religion without a god.

I think it is commendable for you to be so aware of what you value in this life.  Your inclinations to going on a bummer are a sure sign that you value seizing the day, even if what you want to be free to do is nap.  I've witnessed too many people being convinced thay are some kind of criminal simply for following their inclinations to nap a little during the day or stay up for a few hours in the middle of the night.

Emile Cioran instructs us to contemplate the beggar:

"He, at least, neither lies nor lies to himself:
his doctrine, if he has one, he embodies; work he dislikes,
and he proves it; wanting to possess nothing, he cultivates his impoverishment,
the condition of his freedom."

You hit upon something that is a key factor in protecting my solitary ways:  I am barely scraping by, and this has been the case my entire adult life, AND I don't want anyone putting any kind of unnecessary pressure on me to become a better slave.  In other words, I do not want to put myself into any relationship in which another person would critique what was "wrong" with me, or to subject myself to just how wretched and miserable another human being can become.  In other words, I'll take my chances coping with the burdens of my own existence since it does not take much for me to find some contentment; whereas, in relationships, you might increase your suffering 100-fold due to the appetites and demands another human being is driven to satisfy.   I'm not impressed with the ambitious. 

Often couples make the mistake  of assuming that a loner who does not seek romantic relationships might wish to be involved in a relationship.   Look at all the suckers who use on-line dating services and the like.   They look for "life partners" as though picking out a pair of shoes.

No thanks.   

Good luck on your path.  At least you have made a realistic and practical assessment of where you stand.   Are you considering going on welfare?  living on the dole?  What exactly do you mean by going on the bum?  Do you mean just disconnecting from the system altogether?  Living in a cave?  Scavenging on the outskirts of town?  Living in a Tent City?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 07:11:39 pm by Kaspar Hauser »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

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Silenus

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Re: On Non-Breeding Romantic Pair-Bonding
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2018, 02:52:38 pm »
Thank you.  I have quit my job today.  I'm just beginning to consider buying a nice sturdy backpack and tent and taking a Greyhound to the Adirondacks (I live in NY State).  From there trying to hitchhike to a park and see what happens from there.  The biggest fear is food; in a way it'd be nice to have the simplest needs be my only ones.

This is all without detail as of yet;  who knows if I will go through with it, though I may not have any other choice.

People such as ourselves are just not cut out for "life-as-we-know-it."  I say that very loosely; everything about civilization rests on shakey ground; it's a collective hallucination.   The small, yet brave, choice of preferring solitude over coupling/breeding pokes a small hole in this tire that spins more and more out of control.  I'm tired of participating in it.

We weren't cut out for anything except to embody one's philosophy, as a Diogenes, a Cioran, a Laotse, a tramp, would.

As society continues it's decline, will we see more people wander off, like the Desert Fathers and Mothers?  I would hope so; but spare me the God and the back-to-the-land New Age crap.  I prefer not having a solution.  ;)

Civilization is cruel, nature is indifferent.  I'm beginning to lean towards that indifference.  I don't want to romanticize nature, but maybe I'll find some comfort in it's silence, in things that can't fall victim to anthropomorphism (yet). 

Thacker's cosmic pessimism, Silenus' forest indifference??  :)  Enjoy your cell.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 03:03:50 pm by Silenus »

"And the strict master Death bids them dance."

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The Rule of Threes and Coyote/Dog Hybrids
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 11:37:50 pm »
Quote from: Silenus
The biggest fear is food; in a way it'd be nice to have the simplest needs be my only ones.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Civilization is cruel, nature is indifferent.  I'm beginning to lean towards that indifference.

Your fear of lack of food is a healthy fear.  The necessity for food and water and some kind of shelter really lets us know where we stand, as far as being vulnerable to the ever-eager processes of death and dying ... or just the sheer discomfort.  You may be right though as far as the possibility that, if these core animal needs become your sole focus, rather than having these most important and basic needs milking on the tit of civilization, then you might find the most ridiculous concerns evaporate.

I have some precious memories of camping up in the mountains of New York State in the early to mid 1990's and even as late as 2003.  It really is "God's Country" up there.  Even the goat farming taxi-cab driver who picked my nephew and I up at the bus station didn't know where the hell we were when we said, "This is good.  You can drop us here.  We'll walk from here."    8)

Before turning off the computer for the night, I am compelled to just go over the Rule of Threes

By the way, I do understand what you mean when you say that civilization is cruel (see the late John Trudell footnote).

And, yes, nature is indifferent ... Just remember that we cannot escape this civilization simply by living outdoors, and that, like it or not, there may not be any food source, water sources, or available shelter.  You are packing a tent, which is great, but the rains can invade your ground which could leave your body vulnerable to hypothermia. 


1. You can survive three minutes of severe bleeding, without breathable air, or in icy water.

2. You can survive three hours in a harsh environment (extreme heat or cold).

3. You can survive three days without drinkable water.

4. You can survive three weeks without edible food.

You see, Silenus, your greatest fear might become the least of your great concerns should you unplug from the Matrix Hive, without access to electricity, a bread pantry, eggs, pancakes, potatoes, produce ... not to mention running water.

I do not want to discourage you, and you might be a bit younger and more adventurous than I am.  I sure am in no danger of romanticizing life in the wilderness.  This is another consequence of being so realistic.  I have become extremely dependent upon electricity and the coffee, the tobacco ... the lighter.

There was a time when I might have encouraged you to wander into the Wild, but now it is something that I see as more likely to cause you trauma and distress.

I apologize if I sound very lame.   I remember licking rain water off of leaves from being so thirsty, and that's just after hiding out in the woods on the outskirts of town for a couple days.  I've also experienced a broken leg, and I think that that would be my death in the wild. 

I do not wish to instill my fears into you, but you know, up in the mountains of New York State they have coy-dogs which are half-breeds, half coyote, half domesticated dog, and because of this domesticated part, the wild coyote part does not have a normal fear of man.  They run in packs.   These kinds of coyote/dog hybrids shall inherit North America after the collapse of civilization.

And yet, there are others who might encourage you to take to the hills... so, take it for what it's worth.

FOOTNOTE 1:



"The great lie is that this is civilization. It's not civilized." - John Trudell

FOOTNOTE 2: Backcountry Chronicles
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 11:57:03 pm by Kaspar Hauser »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Holden

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Re: On Non-Breeding Romantic Pair-Bonding
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2018, 01:35:17 pm »
Mr.Silenus,
You are a very brave man indeed. I came pretty close to leaving my job too but it did not come to pass.
I hope that you would be alright. I can understand why you have been driven to leave the employment. Men,office colleagues can drive you insane. They are jealous, & play petty politics all the time- I am sure an intelligent man like yourself would have perceived that too.
There is a good German word called Schadenfreude.
 
It is a pity that they did not leave you alone. It is their loss.I think your decision precipitated as a result of ruminations over a period of years.I hope that you would continue to write here- I personally do gain a great deal from your insights.

I have often wondered about walking down the road which you have chosen for yourself & maybe I would too quite soon.
However, I think your decision might have had an immediate trigger-something which might have wounded you emotionally.
Take care & please do keep writing,Mr.Silenus.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Holden

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On Why Romance is a Myth
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2018, 02:03:11 pm »
Libenkunstler,

I read in a book that till the middle ages people married not for "love" but because they wanted to merge their farm lands-& things of that nature.
Now, I never have had a "girlfriend", the woman I wrote to you about a few years back already had a "betrothed"(an interesting word), I knew that even at that point of time .But she was ,to be candid,  a flirt,she was a Delhi Girl which is pretty much like "Essex Girl".
Why did I fall for her? Well, I was like the protagonist of the Kreutzer Sonata-young & naive,but something saved me-or else I would have met with the same fate.

But let me come to the point can a man and woman be friends? Well, I researched this a bit & you might like to check this out:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-and-women-cant-be-just-friends/


Its primarily an empirical study & I am ,essentially,not an empiricist.However, I do think it points to the truth somewhat.The ways of the Will are mysterious indeed.I cried a great deal when she disappeared.But the relationship was platonic, meaning, I never even so much as touched her.
She was not beautiful but she was a chatterbox -maybe it helped me to distract myself from the really serious problems of existence.
I remember I even told her about your blog ( I had just discovered it),she might even have visited it ,for she told me:
Okay, all is woe, but then,what am I supposed to do then? I think what she was trying to say way that there is no alternative to being a gort.What did I say in response ?I said nothing.

Cioran had a girlfriend. Did he "love" her? What would Schopenhauer make of Cioran's lifelong girlfriend in light of his philosophy?
Schopenhauer never says anything about how we "ought" to live.He only describes the existence the way he saw it.

Now candy floss for me-only chickpea  ,I'm afraid :)
Have you tried Chickpea? Very nutritious,easy to cook & very,very filling.Full of protein too.








La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Nation of One

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Re: On Non-Breeding Romantic Pair-Bonding
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2018, 05:15:40 pm »
Chickpeas?  I think I have eaten them cold with baby spinach when visiting an eatery with a salad bar.  The salad bar was free with the warm meal, so I would eat one plate after another from the salad bar until i was stuffed, and then bring home the warm meal to eat at home when the creaturely appetite once again reared its ugly head, or belly, I should say.

I will look into chickpeas.  Do you purchase them hard and let them soak in water, or do you eat them from a can?  I like to soak the hard black-eye peas over night, but, in a pinch, with garlic and onions added, the canned black-eye peas are sufficient.  I hadn't eaten black-eye peas until I was incarcerated at age 19.  Learning about those was one of the benefits of having been incarcerated, along with never being eligible for jury duty when summoned by the Court.   Who knows, maybe I ought to be thankful for having these little stains on the resume of my existence, since this may have prevented potential employers (like Bloomberg in Manhattan) from hiring me when I was hunting for the cheese (like a Volkswagen, perhaps?).

I know I enjoy black-eye peas, but I have to limit beans due to the Mother's diet.   My sister, as I think I have mentioned, as well as her estranged son, my nephew, is a vegetarian and consumes lots of types of beans.  The next time I see her, I will inquire about a chickpea recipe.   She turned me on to spinach soup made with lots of garlic.  I add carrots to the recipe.

When I tell my nephew that I sometimes eat fresh zucchini and squash for breakfast, he thinks that's the greatest news.

As you know, my sister is extremely Catholic, and yet, when I have her and my Dad over to share a meal (I generally cook fresh salmon with a Japanese sauce I have mastered), we get along well.  I usually give her a large can of dry pitted prunes and Maple syrup as a gesture of brotherly love, and I just take a deep breath when she says grace invoking her Father in Heaven.  As you have reminded me on several occasions, it is better she is a devout Catholic than an ambitious co-caine chasing movie star, I suppose.    I could easily picture her entering some kind of religious order in her old age should her husband pass many years before she is "called" back into the Void.

So, I read a few paragraphs of the scientific study you pointed to, and I can vouch that, back in 2007 when living in an apartment complex in a town called Matawan, I had grown very attached to a female neighbor and really did imagine the romantic goo-ga-ga feelings were mutual.  I also remeber clearly crying tears of anguish which actually caused my throat to hurt as I attempted to supress the sounds so as not to alert my neighbors to my heartache.

So, the following paragraph struck me as right on the money from my personal experience:

Quote
The results suggest large gender differences in how men and women experience opposite-sex friendships. Men were much more attracted to their female friends than vice versa. Men were also more likely than women to think that their opposite-sex friends were attracted to them — a clearly misguided belief. In fact, men’s estimates of how attractive they were to their female friends had virtually nothing to do with how these women actually felt, and almost everything to do with how the men themselves felt — basically, males assumed that any romantic attraction they experienced was mutual, and were blind to the actual level of romantic interest felt by their female friends. Women, too, were blind to the mindset of their opposite-sex friends; because females generally were not attracted to their male friends, they assumed that this lack of attraction was mutual. As a result, men consistently overestimated the level of attraction felt by their female friends and women consistently underestimated the level of attraction felt by their male friends.

I no longer overestimate my "sexual prowess" and feel I have become more "whole" since I have come to accept that I am a Natural Born Schopenhauer Disciple.   He may have been what we might call a "selfish" man, but, considering the cold relationship he had with his worldly social butterfly mother, the suicide of his father, the moneys he inherited which he chose to stretch over a lifetime living minimalistically, I feel like I really understood his motives for being so selfish when it came to how he was spend his time "thinking about the problem of existence".

When it comes to what I want to devote my attention to, I am also a selfish man who has learned from experience that so much of what Schopenhauer says about interacting with others is true for me personally as well. 

----------------------------------------------------------
One more comment:   Towards the end of the article it states,

So, can men and women be “just friends?” If we all thought like women, almost certainly.  But if we all thought like men, we’d probably be facing a serious overpopulation crisis.


Is it just me?  What planet is this author living on?  I was under the impression that we ARE facing a serious overpopulation crisis.   Going over logarithmic and exponential functions, I can't help but notice that for a few hundred thousand years the human population was growing maybe at a linear rate, and by around 1800 when Schopenhauer was a youngster, it had reached 1 billion.

By around 1930 it doubled to 2 billion, with a doubling time of about 120 years.

By 1974 or so, the human population doubled again to 4 billion, this time with a doubling time of less than 40 years.

Supposedly it will reach 8 billion within the next 10 years, so doubling within 50 years from when it was 4 billion.  Hell, during my own lifetime, it's gone from over 3 billion to over 7 billion.  Can this be right?  I suppose so.

The authorities are always concerned about too many deer coming out of the woods (what woods?!?) and causing damage to the gort-mobiles.  Bears have been seen basking in the sun inside some of the more well-to-do gorts McMansion pools.  Everyone knows that the problem isn't too much wildlife, but too many gorts!

I notice that in areas of the world where there is famine and disease that the peoples are still engaged in this "going forth and multiplying".   Maybe all we can do is watch it play itself out.  In the meantime, we all need to eat food, and the majority, it seems, not only enjoys sexual relations, but actually makes a conscious decision to impose life on future generations in cold blood.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that there is a chance that overpopulation will end up being ever-so ironically the Number One threat to the survival of our species.  It turns out that less really is more.

Even if the breeders on this global plantation have snide remarks about their fellow humans who are not up to the task of providing for a family, they can at the very least appreciate that not all of us will be contributing to the overpopulation crisis. 

Also, rather than making those who choose not to invest in a motor vehicle feel like some kind of "loser," maybe society might organize transportation to make it possible for less and less people to NEED an automobile to collect their groceries.

I can't solve any of these problems.  With George Carlin, I say, "If you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem!"

 8)

As always, it is great hearing from the Kafka of Northern India.

Peace.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 04:11:39 pm by Kaspar Hauser »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Silenus

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Re: On Non-Breeding Romantic Pair-Bonding
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2018, 04:40:32 pm »
Holden,
I have taken your kind words seriously- you are right, I was "immediately triggered"...I suppose I am what you would call an "overly sensitive man."
 
It's truly been nice to have time in my own hands.  Sleeping-in, lolling about the apartment...

Again, I have taken your words to heart.  As much as I hate WORK I may have to submit again...I'm a coward and a bundle of emotions, I confess.

I potentially have an interview tomorrow for what sounds to be an "ideal job" for a coward like me: janitor, part-time work with monetary compensation + an apartment/utilities at no cost.  I would take it if I could live for free, working only 20-30 hours a week. 

We will see.  This coward and fool, signing out.

"And the strict master Death bids them dance."

Holden

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Re: On Non-Breeding Romantic Pair-Bonding
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2018, 02:25:14 am »
Mr. Silenus,

With due respect, I’d like to say that I do not think that you are a “coward” & I certainly would not call you an "overly sensitive man." You are no fool either-take it from me.

I imagine that perhaps one of your colleagues,or (hate to use the word)”superiors” at the workplace said something quite harsh to you or something of that nature happened.

With you permission, maybe we can analyze the situation. Similar things have happened with me a thousand times.Usually, one of my colleagues goes to the boss & feeds him with half-false negative information concerning me-every boss has a few sycophants. I get tons of verbal warnings as well as written ones to pull up my socks-I no longer care.

Why do I no longer care? Well, the boss has a certain kind of nature –he cannot help being what he is & neither can the sycophants & nor can I for that matter.

Please understand that if I were in your shoes I would have done something very similar. You are not to blame. It is due to the eternal necessity that these things happen.You could not have done anything different. You did not get to chose your genes nor did you get to chose your cultural, social & economic environment-you are a product of nature as much as a sparrow is a product of nature.

Let’s say there is a stone in the river bed & its round in shape due to the flow of water over the course of centuries-if  stone says to itself-woe is me, I wish I were a pointy stone,well, it is round at the end of the day-not because it chose to be round but because of the elements of the nature.

I am sure you felt terrible-I feel terrible too. Why? Well, why does a stone fall down when it is dropped from the top of building? Law of nature. The stone has no say in the matter-it must fall. But while it is falling it can thinking about the eternal necessity which caused its fall…

Insofar as we understand nature to be the cause of pain, we to that extent feel joyous.

As regards your work related problems,well,for what its worth –in India there are literally millions of kids who wish to learn English-particularly spoken English-all you need to have is a cam and an internet connection & you can do it right from your home.I’d be glad to give you the address of the relevant sites if you like.Like I said,just my thoughts-they may not be useful to you at all.

Keep well ,Mr. Silenus & please remember that you are not responsible for your circumstances or for your emotions.But you can indeed analyse them to a certain degree.And please know that you are a very intelligent young man.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.

Holden

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Re: On Non-Breeding Romantic Pair-Bonding
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2018, 04:06:01 am »
Mr.Silenus,

What does our emotional life consist in? Our emotional life has got an internal logic of its own, all motivated by each thing’s attempt to persist and to flourish in its own being. And what does our joy consist in? It consists in our each seeing, through the operation of our reason, the necessity of all things, deducing the nature of reality and seeing ourselves with complete objectivity in relation to the whole infinite sweep of things.In the light of objectivity the personal differences between us shrivel up into near non-existence.
La Tristesse Durera Toujours                                  (The Sadness Lasts Forever ...)
-van Gogh.