Author Topic: Diogenes  (Read 5676 times)

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Mad Dog Mike

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Re: Diogenes
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2018, 10:46:38 am »
The more I learn about Diogenes of Sinope, the more inclined I am to regard him as offensive.  I have come face to face with several who hold similar views as Diogenes and they have always filled me with self-doubt.  They have always mocked that which is virtually sacred to me.

Not only that, but having slept on the ground and had to sleep under bridges in the rain, I would never take living outdoors lightly.  It can be dangerous, to say the least.

I'm afraid I am a far more delicate creature than the rough primitivist, Diogenes.

Therefore, I am not ashamed to admit that I prefer living indoors.  Not only this, but I am put off by what I can only perceive as an extreme form of anti-intellectualism in Diogenes.  Granted, I do share his disdain for pretentious academics, and I am aware that the enormity of information we might be exposed to can make getting through life more difficult than it need be; that is, learning too much may become a great burden leading many youth to suicide.   

There has to be some kind of balance; hence my personal approach to studying mathematics: focusing on the fundamentals and avoiding texts which are way over my head.

So, once again I must process a certain kind of cognitive dissonance where I begin to acknowledge that someone I once held in high esteem may actually turn out to be "not my cup of tea."  I am afraid Diogenes might mock me and the kinds of things I value.   As I have said, I have encountered the likes of Diogenes.  There are entire segments of the population in the United States who share his contempt for learning and prefer a state of ignorance.  The more ignorance, the better, as far as they're concerned.

There are those who would find a man pathetic and useless if all of his so-called skill in algebraic manipulations could not help him transform powdered co-caine into the solid rock form which they can place in their pipes and smoke.   :o


Quote
The worthiest among human beings, said Diogenes according to Stobaeus, are those who despise learning and prefer a state of ignorance - ignorance understood not in the sense of not knowing anything, but in the sense of dispensing with unnecessary learning and acquiring only the knowledge that is sufficient for a good and simple life. This is what Diogenes identified as the only meaning and purpose of philosophy.

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This orientation inherent in Diogenes is responsible for his having been accused of anti-intellectualism, primitivism, and gross materialism, which is partly justified if such terms are understood in a limited sense. His anti-intellectualism can be taken for granted, but only in the context of his campaign against certain types of intellectual constructions such as we find exemplified in philosophical and ideological systems, and in the context of his opposition to those intellectual activities that, from his point of view, fill the mind with unnecessary and distracting thoughts.

I would never accuse Diogenes of gross materialism.  He does appear to me to be rather arrogant, and as one who has been greatly humbled by life - by thirst and heat, but being wet and cold and hungry, as well as having been humbled by the enormity of information I will never be able to wrap my brain around, not to mention being humbled by the awareness of a personal lack of virility and sexual prowess, I find Diogenes to be, well, to be honest, a bit too arrogant

So, while I certainly respect his audacity, I must confess up front that I am wired much differently than this True Cynic.  It became clear to me in my youth that I was certainly no Jesus of Nazareth; and, likewise, as man who is quite "over the hill," I can say without the least bit of shame that I am no Diogenes of Sinope!
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 12:36:28 pm by Kaspar the Jaded »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

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raul

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Re: Diogenes
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2018, 03:39:50 pm »
Hentrich,

My ignorance is vast, I admit. You have enough experience in this life to know that there will be always people who will mock what is sacred to you. That is part of life.

I have slept on the streets many times but because I got drunk heavily and never knew if it was morning or afternoon. I even appeared on TV years because they got me sleeping against the light post. And once they stole my glasses and my shoes because of my drunken state. But the thing is I would never survive like so many here, sleeping on the streets, as you say, it is dangerous.

And you are what you are, Hentrich from New Jersey, United States of America. You are no Diogenes of Sinope and why should you be like him anyway? You were born in different circumnstances, different geography, different family and backgrounds. I could never be Diogenes from what you have shared about him.

I only know that very soon I will join my parents and ancestors in the grave. No matter what I do or say or think, death is inevitable.

Stay safe and sound.

Mad Dog Mike

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Re: Diogenes
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2018, 09:28:33 am »
I don't mind being mocked, for I certainly engage in a great deal of mocking, so, there is mutual disdain.   Nor can I fault Diogenes for being offensive, for as Holden mentioned right here earlier in this thread that he started way back in 2014, according to Diogenes, a true philosopher is offensive.   So, it is fitting that I should find Diogenes offensive, and maybe it is only because of the "lashings" and "punishments" I have been served that has made me so polite and "respectful" of the so-called "hard-working" career slaves.

Quote from: Luis Navia
Diogenes' "harsh and savage voice" in Hades was heard even more loudly while he lived in the physical world, and few were able to escape from his attacks.

Those who admired him and became his disciples must have been very few. Seldom have philosophers been admired and revered by the multitude, and, as Schopenhauer once observed, popularity and greatness of mind often stand in an inverse ratio. Popularity is a sure indication of emptiness of mind and of spiritual vacuity, for the masses normally admire and applaud those who resemble them, and in no way can we say that Diogenes resembled the common man of his time, nor indeed the common man of any other time.

In some ways I do agree with Diogenes, but only so far as in waging war against those who take pride in their slavery or who are thick-headed enough to think that someone like myself would be ashamed of not being a good slave.  I am speaking of all sorts of career professionals in the "medical professions" as well as the "first responders," police, and even soldiers in the military.


There is this huge campaign to try to instill shame or guilt on those of us who refuse to pay homage to authority-worshippers, to those suckers who are impressed with stupid symbols like "diamond rings."   So, while I have ceased shouting such things in the streets, and I certainly refrain from insulting nieces and younger cousins or actual others who may be caught up in the "career-oriented slavery," on the track and destined to breed yet another generation who may have the opportunity to study mathematics only to end up designing "apps" for the idiot box entertainment contraptions the denizens will strap around their faces …  ::)

I am quite content to be the stubborn outcast who takes pride in building his own custom made programs designed to be called from the command line, designed for me, not to be "liked" by the masses.  I certainly do not wish to devote any energy into pleasing the masses.

Quote from: Luis Navia
… it is not that Diogenes waged war against learning and education, for he understood well that these are the foundations on which a happy and good life can be based, but only if they are oriented in the right direction, and this direction he specified with clarity - not in the cobwebs and labyrinths of words and reasonings constructed by philosophers and poets. Neither is it found, he would have said, in the senseless and mechanical training that goes nowadays by the name of career education and that prepares the youth to enter blindly and obediently the slave marketplace.

Quote from: Luis Navia
One cannot but wonder how Diogenes would have reacted if, transported to the twenty-first century, he could have observed how people are consumed by the need to acquire unimaginable amounts of information.  Had he heard what nowadays is proudly taken as an indisputable fact, namely, that what we know now is almost infinitely greater than what people knew in ancient times, he would not have been impressed. Progress, whether in knowledge or in technology, is only an illusion if it is not accompanied by spiritual progress. Like the knowledge that the prisoners in Plato's cave have about the shadows which they mistake for reality, that sort of knowledge is meaningless and is actually detrimental to the spirit. It inevitably blinds the eye of the soul and leaves us in darkness.


Again, this is why I focus on mathematics I find to be fundamental and "preliminary" … and do not wish to get lost in long-winded debates about whether there is any such thing as Infinite or whether Real Numbers actually exist or not.

I guess that, for me, personally, I just have to forgive myself for the undeniable hypocrisy exposed in the fact that I depend on the taxes paid by the masses who are pulling the cart of civilization, stocking the shelves with the eggs, slaughtering the chickens and other animals on the farms, picking the plums which become the prunes I so enjoy.


I can't deny that I am in no position to cast too severe judgment against those who I will be dependent upon should I find myself with a broken leg in a hospital, needing medical attention of any kind.

In other words, there are moments when I may admit that I am kind of pathetic even though, in my defense, I cannot apologise for my refusal to pay homage to those who march on command.

Quote from: Luis Navia
We might argue that one's reaction to Diogenes, as happens in many situations, depends on one's own frame of mind. Schopenhauer once remarked that one does not choose to appreciate a certain philosopher or a certain philosophical attitude, for the reverse is true: that appreciation is determined by the kind of person one is. It might be possible that in order to understand and appreciate the value of Diogenes as a philosopher, one may have to be a Cynic oneself or at least have certain Cynic tendencies. How can someone whose psychological predispositions and whose upbringing incline him to blindly accept all social norms and to deify the Establishment and the status quo, and who, as in the case of patriotic enthusiasts and religious zealots, cannot find fulfillment in life except as part of a group, discover any value in a man like Diogenes, who, partly on account of his character and the circumstances of his life, and partly because of certain philosophical influences, felt compelled to wage a relentless war against the human world that surrounded him, and found his fulfillment only in the shelter of his self-proclaimed independence?

Quote from: Luis Navia
Accordingly, outside of himself, Diogenes' wish was to undertake the demolition of the world with regard to its laws, customs, traditions, and moral norms, because he, too, like Schopenhauer, must have reached at one point or another the unsettling conclusion that "the world on all sides is bankrupt and that life is a business that does not cover the costs."' Had Diogenes been acquainted with Schopenhauer's pessimistic assessment of the world, he would not have disagreed. He might have embraced Schopenhauer's conclusion that even if the evil of the world were a hundred times less than it is, its very existence would suffice to convince any person of dear mind that its nonexistence would be preferable to its existence, for it is undoubtedly "something that at bottom ought not to be.  Those who find the world something worthy of praise or who congratulate themselves for having been born in it are either intellectually blind or morally perverse.


And so, now I pack some books into a back-pack and prepare to drive the Mother to yet another appointment with a doctor.   For me, "doing mathematics" has become a form of meditation, simply a way to assert the primary importance of "my inner life" in the midst of living in this world of highways, hospitals, grocery stores, banks, court houses, churches, synagogues, temples and prisons … lots of prisons of various types … and lots of farms, those mysterious places which provide food for the cities …

Of course, in greeting others, one is sure to hear, "we're lucky to be alive!".

And I will reflect upon how lucky we are to be destined to rot stinking in the earth and eaten by worms.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 03:22:49 pm by Kaspar the Jaded »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Mad Dog Mike

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Re: Diogenes
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2025, 06:23:30 pm »
Philosophical Dogs ...

Cynic comes from the Greek word, for DOG.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg6DaPM5EYY
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~

Mad Dog Mike

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Re: Diogenes
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2025, 02:17:45 pm »
The Clash of Titans | Diogenes the Cynic vs. Plato

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE3Hkui-0B4
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~