Author Topic: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?  (Read 43093 times)

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Holden

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A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« on: November 12, 2014, 02:42:18 pm »
I have been meaning to ask this question for sometime-a few weeks back you wrote :
We can't change the masses.  There are Qualitas Occulta.  I know I oughtn't capitalize the letters lest someone think I am referencing the patriarchal godhead archetype, but, you know, the original forces of nature are not only mountains, oceans, clouds, the energy of hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.  These qualitas occultae are in our own bodies. 

I searched the internet & came to know that Schopenhauer used the term to describe the character of the world,but I could not quite grasp the concept.

Could you please shed some light on this,I mean the phrase Qualitas Occulta? Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 02:50:34 pm by Holden »
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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 11:59:37 am »
Go to The World As Will & Representation.

You can use google books and search for "qualitas".

A great question though.  It gives me some research to do.  Maybe we could both peck away at this, referencing Schopenhauer's own words, and then trying to develop an intuitive feel for what this concept is.

From Volume 1:  page {72, 80, 127, 131, 140}
From Volume 2: page {249, 334}

I will take my time with this.  I have been reading this material for over 20 years, and I am surprised I don't have a good enough grasp to explain it in my own words.   I would say qualitas occulta is an original force of nature, like gravity ... but this does not satisfy me.  I will return to the Master and reflect more deeply on this.


« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 12:08:04 pm by { } »
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Holden

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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2014, 05:35:30 pm »
Thanks for the response! I will check out those pages and get back to you. :)
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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2014, 10:05:29 am »
Just a quick update.  I had went through those pages as well as any reference to the plural form (occultae) in both volumes.   It appears that Schopenhauer is using this term just to mean "absolutely inexplicable" or "unfathomable" ...

Quote from: Holden
I will check out those pages and get back to you.

By all means, do ... Maybe you may see something I am missing.  I think Schopenhauer would be pleased to find some of the most curious minds of our doomed era have been pouring over his verbiage.  He knew that only a few souls would even be inclined to wonder what the f-u-c-k he was going on about.  I am starting to suspect he was a Master Comedian ... but that is an entirely different thread ... If the creek doesn't rise, maybe someone will pour through his work to pick out the side-splitting antics of a great comic, like when he is railing against Hegel ...  :D

You want to hear something eerily uncanny?  Later in the evening, after going through those pages in the Magnum Opus, I was continuing to go through the material you directed me to: In the Dust of This Planet by Eugene Thacker (HORROR OF PHILOSOPHY).  I have made it up to the part where the author discusses the need for demontology [sic] or philosophical demonology.  Just prior to this part, he mentions Schopenhauer, where he equates nihil privativum with the world-for-us (as the world as Representation) and nihil negativum with the world-in-itself (as the world as Will).  Somewhere in this section he uses the term "occult quality" which is of course "qualitas occulta" --- so, I think it is safe to just take the terminology as is:  hidden quality.

This section leads to nothing ... And you know what I mean by nothing.

This is all very fascinating since I have been obsessed with nothing since adolescence.  Well, Schopenhauer's solution to our perplexing dilemma is "denial of the will to live" which is basically a quasi-mystical endeavor:  a will to will-lessness?  a longing for nothingness?  { } ... ∅ ...

Everything is made up of nothing?  Everything destined for non-existence?

Teacher: What interests you, Johnny?
Johnny: Nothing interests me.

Does the teacher understand what Johnny is interested in?

It looks like we are pretty much on point.  You already have such interest, Holden.  The thing is, it is the riddle of the world itself that can't be fathomed ... JUST being aware that there is such a riddle is a great feat!   Those we call "gorts" aren't even concerned that existence doesn't make any sense!

The way Wittgenstein handled this Schopenhauerian awareness of the riddle is that he said we can't possibly talk about these things.  Notice that this is "forthebirds" strategy.  This is possibly the strategy that brings the most peace of mind.  I recall Schopenhauer stating somewhere that, although we might not be able to speak (articulate with reason) certain truths does not imply we can't think them.  I think his wording was more like, "The unsayable is not the unthinkable."

Still, we are stubborn.  We will be like the finger pointing to the moon knowing that it is just a finger pointing at the moon and not the moon itself.  Unfortunately we will end up sounding like mystical madmen.   Most people don't care about these matters.  I had lifted a quote from The Riddle of the World:  A Reconsideration of Schopenhauer's Philosophy by Barbara Hannan and placed it in The Riddler thread.  All these threads are all interconnected in this web so I will place it here too.

Quote from: Barbara Hannan
I am the admittedly unusual sort of person who is drawn to philosophy. Many people (maybe even most people), it seems, do not feel the riddle of the world at all. They conclude early on that life is about making money, or having a family, or becoming successful, and proceed to live in accordance with these conclusions, never questioning them. Or they accept the answers provided by religion, refusing to consider whether religion is really plausible. A person must have a certain level of intelligence, and a certain personality type, I believe, even to think there is a riddle of the world. Or perhaps I’m wrong. Maybe it’s just that most people don’t want to think about or talk about the riddle of the world, because it frightens them.

Well, since this thread zeros in on the term "qualitas occulta" I will transcribe notes I had scribbled in my notebook (Book of Nonsense: volume 4).  I will do this soon.  You will be relieved to know that it's basically something inexplicable ... hence "occult quality". 

Some of the notes are from the pages mentioned, but most are from Horror of Philosophy.  So, ironically, you provided me with the material to respond to an earlier question.  Uncanny?  You are on some kind of path, Holden.  Maybe I simply serve as some kind of mirror ... simply to validate the value of your interest in this perplexing insoluble riddle.

Maybe it is as simple as this.  Qualitas Occulta implies Insoluble = admitting of no solution or explanation.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 09:49:53 pm by mike »
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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2014, 06:15:18 pm »
References to Qualitas Occulta in Schopenhauer's The World As Will & Representation

V1p72

The theorem of Pythagoras teaches us a qualitas occulta of the right angled triangle; the stilted, and indeed subtle, proof of Euclid forsakes us at the why, and the accompanying simple figure, already known to us, gives at a glance far more insight into the matter, and firm inner conviction of that necessity, and of the dependence of that property on the right angle, than is given by his proof.

Now, the following image is not from Schopenhauer's work, but he is talking about intuitive knowing - directly through perception.

Rather than thinking a^2 + b^2 = c^2, we imagine

The sides are squared.  You gain insight at a glance.

So what does Schopenhauer mean when he says "Pythagoras teaches us a qualitas occulta of the right-angled triangle"? Pythagoras teaches us the hidden quality of right-angled triangles?  Pythagoras teaches us the ultimate cause or inner nature of right triangles?


V1p80

weight is a qualitas occulta

qualitas occulta implies "something wholly obscure".

Hmmm ....


V1p106

qualitas occulta as "ultimate cause" ?


V1p122

The forces of impenetrability, gravitation, rigidity, fluidity, cohesion, elasticity, heat, light, magnetism, electricity, and so on are qualitates occultae.

occult forces?  forces of nature?


V1p131

qualitas occulta implies "original force"


V1p140

The universal forces of nature, in physics, remain a qualitas occulta.


V2p14

qualitas occulta refers to something absolutely inexplicable


V2p314

qualitas occulta implies "something unfathomable"


My conclusion is that qualitas occulta implies a wholly obscure, unfathomable, and absolutely inexplicable force of nature. 


From The Horror of Philosophy


Now, where does demonology fit in to this?  Well, when I was investigating Thacker's In the Dust of This Planet as requested by Holden, the section that mentions Schopenhauer and "occult quality" mentions something that has not yet been invented:  Demontology [sic].

Demontology would have to undertake the thought of nothingness, but a nothingness that is also NOT simply non-being. 

Thacker refers to Schopenhauer, who provides an explanation (posthumously): 

Quote from: Schopenhauer
I must first of all observe that the concept of nothing (Nichts) is essentially relative, and always refers to a definite something that it negates.  This quality has been attributed merely to the nihil privativum indicated by - in contrast to +.  This negative sign (-) from the opposite point of view might become +, and in opposition to this nihil privativum, the nihil negativum has been set up, which in every respect would be nothing.  But considered more closely, an absolute nothing, a really proper nihil negativum, is not even conceivable, but everything of this kind, considered from a higher standpoint or subsumed under a wider concept, is always only nihil privativum.

The nihil negativum is the world as "Will" ... the world-in-itself as it is manifest to us in its inaccessibility, in its enigmatic "occult qualities".  The nihil privativum is the world as "Representation" (Verstellung) ... the world-for-us, as we experience it.

Quote from: Eugene Thacker
As Schopenhauer notes, "what is universally assumed as positive, what we call being (Seiende), the negation of which is expressed by the concept nothing (Nichts) in its most general significance, is exactly the world as representation."

As for the other path, the nihil negativum, Schopenhauer - who is otherwise vociferous in his attacks on religion - suggest a strange affinity with mysticism: denial of the will to live.

I guess we will have to put this in our pipe and smoke it.   ;D
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 10:09:59 am by { } »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

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Holden

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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2014, 01:33:38 pm »
Thank you for your detailed response.I am sorry for not being able to respond sooner,like I told you I was out of town.
The thing is, it is the riddle of the world itself that can't be fathomed .
Yes, I agree.Just yesterday, I was reading Leopardi's "Night-time chant of a wandering Asian sheep-herder".The canto begins with the words "Che fai tu Luna in ciel? Dimmi, che fai, / silenziosa Luna?" (“What do you do there, moon, in the sky? Tell me what you do, silent moon. When evening comes you rise and go contemplating wastelands; then you set."). Throughout the entire poem, in fact, the moon remains silent.

The freaking moon always remains silent.But maybe it says something afterall,which I cannot hear in spite of straining my ears & maybe what it says is Qualitas Occulta.
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Holden

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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2016, 04:12:42 pm »
I have a question:do you know any other philosopher who has concepts similar to Schopenhauer’s Qualitas Occulta,or do you know any books about similar concepts?
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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2016, 05:39:05 pm »
Not off the top of my head, Holden.  That term, along with principium individuationis, was one of the mysterious ideas that I remember having a strong impact on me when my mind first grappled with it.  Qualitas Occulta is an obscure term, but I am certain you study it constantly even if you do not name it. 

I had never heard the term before reading Schopenhauer, although I do have a vague understanding of the actual words, "Qualities Hidden".  Maybe we will be exposed to more of Schopenhauer's influences somewhere in Cartwright's biography.  We might find out where he came across the term.  The idea seems to be the same kind that Robert Pirsig defined as "Quality" in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 11:27:32 am by H »
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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2016, 11:30:01 pm »
While he does not name qualitas occulta by name, I happened to flip to page 326, the last couple of pages of chapter 25 of WWRv2, where Schopenhauer is describing the nature of our consciousness, and he is using a mathematical analogy, specifically from solid geometry. 

He is describing how consciousness presupposes individuality and belongs to the mere phenomenon, whereas our inner nature has its root in the thing-in-itself.

"In this root-point  of existence the difference of beings ceases, just as that of the radii of a sphere ceases at the center."


There is only consciousness on the surface of the sphere.  Within us, towards the center, in sleep and in death, consciousness forsakes us.

We identify our individual personality as this consciousness, and yet, our inner nature is not in consciousness at all, and, in fact, is not even human, having more in common with mountains and oceans and qualitates occultae than with other human beings (personality, temperament, etc).

Maybe our moods are more akin to chaotic weather patterns (hidden forces) than with genetically acquired traits.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 09:53:28 pm by mike »
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

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Holden

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To Herr Hentrich and Senor Raul
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2016, 06:56:35 am »
Herr Hentrich,

Internet connectivity has been erratic for the last few days.You often use the word uncanny,&you have been reading about Heidegger too.

Did you know that in German the word for 'uncanny' is 'unheimlich' which Heidegger in his book                     Being and Time              thought worthy of some consideration:
   In anxiety one feels uncanny. Here the peculiar indefiniteness of that which Dasein finds itself alongside in anxiety, comes proximally to expression: the "nothing and nowhere". But here "uncanniness" also means "not-being-at home." In our first indication of the phenomenal character of Dasein's basic state and in our clarification of the existential meaning of "Being-in" as distinguished from the categorial signification of 'insideness', Being-in was defined as "residing alongside . . .", "Being-familiar with ..." This character of Being-in was then brought to view more concretely through the everyday publicness of the "they", which brings tranquilized self-assurance—'Being-at-home', with all its obviousness—into the average everydayness of Dasein. On the other hand, as Dasein falls, anxiety brings it back from its
absorption in the 'world'. Everyday familiarity collapses. Dasein has been individualized, but individualized as Being-in-the- world. Being-in enters into the existential 'mode' of the "not-at-home". Nothing else is meant by our talk about 'uncanniness'.

Senor Raul,
You are a very well read person.And you possess a high degree of intelligence too-you never procreated,you are not a careerist.Few years back I read the English version of Don Quixote.Like him I was most absurd,I thank my stars that I ran into Herr H.& Schopenhauer.While the elements may still get me-never again shall a Dulcinea entrap and enamour me again.

Truly I was born to be an example of misfortune, and a target at which the arrows of adversary are aimed.

Keep well in Paraguay,Senor.
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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2016, 11:17:14 am »
Thank you for that clarification, Holden.

Yes, I have been using the word uncanny to mean "strange" or "weird", as though some supernatural agencies were at work.  Like when I was typing up the above post about Schopenhauer's analogy of the sphere, the radii, and the center, on an old monitor I have attached to the computer as a second screen, an image of Schopenhauer appeared, the one where he is on a red stamp ... and my original copy of WWRv2, the one I was referring to, is red.

While I do not endorse the belief in a "spirit world", since we are only passing through this dimension rather rapidly in time and space, what can I really be too sure about as far as what energies are at play in our day to day existence?

Take care Holden.  I am glad to have made this connection with you - and Raul as well.

That Heidegger focuses on anxiety, which to me, falls under the category of "mood", makes me curious to learn to decipher his terminology.
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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2016, 07:47:55 am »
Señor Holden,
Thank you for your response. I appreciate your words. No, I am not a well read person. In front of you and Hentrich, I am just a beginner. Don Quixote,wow,Holden, I congratulate you. The only time I read Don Quixote was the title. Yes, I also think I should thank the stars and also the Say No to Life blog that I ran into Michael Hentrich, Michael the archangel of New Jersey, USA. Absurd,you? We live in a very absurd world. As I wrote before you, Hentrich and others like you are part of an elite, not a power elite, not a moneyed elite but a thinking elite. I read most of this blog and you two have pondered deeply into this so called life,this nightmare. You view the world, the human beings and life in general as it really is. And the rest of us, we are not emotionally strong to deal with these dark truths, we are deluded and we hide from ourselves, and we hide from life. Daily existence is too much.As Arthur says life is a nightmare that ends with death. Stay well in India. Raúl

Señor Hentrich,
Stay well too in New Jersey.

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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2016, 05:33:29 pm »
Thanks Raul.  Your words help me to give myself some credit just for facing areas that are difficult for me.  Instead of feeling stupid or wondering why I bother to try to understand, you remind me that it is because I am not afraid to face the reality of my ignorance.

As you say, most do not want to face their ignorance and so may stick to things that come easy to them.

I face my ignorance constantly, so I am always feeling a bit brain dead.  While you may be referring to our fearless perceptions of the dismal nature of existence, from birth to death, driven by want and need, facing the dark truths can also be applied to studying mathematics or anything else that may seem overwhelming.   

Didn't Colin Wilson mention this somewhere, about how a child may feel upon looking at an advanced mathematics textbook?   I still get that feeling, knowing there is only so very little I will ever be able to truly grasp.  In a way, that too is one of the nightmarish aspects of our existence.

Many people must go through life avoiding things that will tax their brains too much, hence the great love the masses have for professional sports, gambling, poooornography, cars, cars, cars ...

Hell, when I use to do minor repairs on my Volkswagen, sometimes I would become a bit overwhelmed and filled with doubt.  I experienced the same feeling when planting tomatoes and squash, fearing that I did not know what the hell I was doing.  I just stuck them in the ground carefully, and they came up fine.

Well, this life fills is all with great anxiety.  Nine minutes out of every ten minutes we are suffering from some kind of anxiety.   What you have so graciously pointed out is that Holden and I do not pretend we do not suffer from this anxiety, and we resent those who pretend they do not experience it.

That's why we say the world is full of shiit.

People just don't get it.   They can't fool us because we know what it means to have been born.

Wedding ceremonies and baby showers make a mockery of the truth.   

Maybe people do not like to think too much because this would rob them of their so-called happiness.

Look at my obsession with math.  Sure, it is better than drinking myself to death and constantly getting arrested for my bizarre behavior, but down in the nitty gritty details, my daily studies are not at all pleasant.   It is mostly a spiritual exercise, as I have said, one that makes me more and more intimate with my own ignorance.   I say this only to be honest for I am in no way ashamed of my ignorance.   I'm chipping away at it.   Others may feel brilliant who never really do too much thinking at all. 

Oh well.  I will praise intellectual honesty.  This is the most necessary quality to get too the heart of our confusion.   Before I can learn anything, I have to first be honest about my confusion.  Only then might give it some attention.

You know, I haven't been reading much literature lately, but have come to appreciate exercises in textbooks that force me to stop and think (for a few days).  Unfortunately, most education experiences do not offer this luxury.   It is as though one rushed to get through it to be done with it so as to never have to think about it again, instead of the possibility that most of us are introduced to ideas that we may struggle to understand until we lie stinking in the earth.   :-\

Of course, I am stretching the meaning of the word ignorance, where it is very relative.

I used to hang with groups of Mexican laborers in the woods drinking beer ... explaining to them how "stupid" I feel when speaking Spanish.   I use the word ignorance in a very personal way, not comparing myself to anyone but my self.

I am easily frustrated by my limitations.  Life humbles us all in some manner or another.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 05:48:16 pm by {∅} »
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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2017, 01:13:37 pm »
Hey guys,

I found this thread while also googling the aforementioned term. You may be pleased to know that I found it in an older text by an equally noteworthy philosopher: notes from Immanual Kant's lectures on logic by one of his students, Jasche. See here: https://books.google.com/books?id=CnG1CIiZC98C&q=hidden+properties#v=snippet&q=hidden%20properties&f=false

There was nothing relevant to this idea outside of this page, in this text. Critique of Pure Reason might have something but I'm not too confident in my interpretation of much of it, as of yet. Also I found this by searching google books: https://books.google.com/books?id=Jbpe5ky4FJoC&pg=PA328&dq=qualitas+occulta&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6gqOxyabRAhXEzVQKHZOOAiQQ6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q=qualitas%20occulta&f=false

Basically, something that seems to have consequences on the world that we can detect through our senses (and therefore intuit) but cannot understand (void of understanding for the reason). E.g. Hume might argue that causality is a qualitas occulta

As an aside, I sense some of you guys on this board would benefit from other models of meaning. You may like: www.meaningness.com as well as direct engagement with Buddhist philosophy and practice

Good luck in your endeavors!

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Re: A Question-What is Qualitas Occulta?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2017, 01:44:43 pm »
Thank you for taking the time to point this out to us.  I'll be sure to browse through meaningness.

 
Things They Will Never Tell YouArthur Schopenhauer has been the most radical and defiant of all troublemakers.

Gorticide @ Nothing that is so, is so DOT edu

~ Tabak und Kaffee Süchtigen ~